promax_motorsport

Hi Jeremias,

Boost does not need to be adjusted and no adjustment is possible - unless an inline boost controller is used. The boost should be set to a maximum of 1.2 bar and the KLR is modified to accept a 1.5 bar MAP sensor. This allows the factory detectable maximum of 1.0 bar (in the KLR) to be exceeded.

The new software is developed, but the copyright protection is not ready - will announce when available.

Regards,
Andrew
www.promaxmotorsport.com

Transaxle

Maybe I should add some words about the SciVision MAF kit at this point:

First, the "MAF kit" is a MAF based AFM. It is "just" a AFM compatible sensor based on MAF technologie. I also do not like the description "signal massaging". What it does is to read the MAF signal, that delivers the actual mass flow in kg/h. In addition it gets the air density in kg/m3. Dividing both you get the volume flow in m3/h. This value is converted to the corresponding AFM signal and that is sent to the DME. Since we do have access to the Bosch calibration sheets of the original AFM, this signal is 5 digits behind the comma precise.

The reason to put this into an external computer and not into the DME was that the DME reads the AFM signal every 11.36 ms - and with the external CPU we can read it every 0.6 ms - that allows us to calculate the airflow more precisely.

At the end we have a AFM replacement without the restrictions of the flap that should run in every environment, the AFM would run.

The SciVision chips are designed to use the capabilities of the stock DME/KLR with the CV up to the KLR 1.0 Bar limitations. They work with the AFM and with the SciVision MAF kit or any other AFM compatible sensor. Here in Germany it is very difficult to survive on the Autobahn without a working knock control system. The DME/KLR system was designed for these circumstances and with the improved DME/KLR software we are still able to reduce the boost on high speed knocking automatically if the engine starts to knock.

Both the "MAF kit" and the chips are designed to get most out of the stock design of the 951 without changing to much of this classic car.

Andial951

1.2bar.....is that 16.8psi? So this means I will always be running at 16.8psi max with your 1.2bar chip? I can never adjust to more or less? That sounds like a disadvantage.

This also means I have to use the cycling valve right? But I always thought the cycling valve was a weak point on the car and couldnt be trusted.

Im also unsure how the wastegate fits into all of this. Will the wastegate just suddenly open at 1.2bar? I dont think so right......so then is the chip telling the cycling valve when to open the wastegate.......?

951and944S

Seems that unless the DME needs a more precise calculation or you change the speed at which the DME can process, then all you're really doing there is still supplying AFM signal data at each 11.36 millisecond interval.

If the increased potential of a faster cpu was responsible for gains, data logging 11.36 ms interval AFM signal voltage vs. 0.6 ms (AFM=ext. comp. out) would have to prove different values at the 11.36 ms DME sampling rate.

Am I missing something....?

TS

danny951

1.2 bar = 17.405 psi (1.2 * 14.504)

On a stock 951, the stock wastegate would always open at .2bar (3psi) if it weren't for the cycle valve (CV) because the spring on the WG is a .2bar spring. To get more boost, the cycle valve controls the wastegate by cycling from open to closed and turning the pressure to the wastegate either on or off. The CV is controlled by the DME/KLR and in turn is what controls the wastegate. Those who have bypassed their CV have chosen an aftermarket wastegate controller to control boost instead of the stock design. In my opinion, the advantage is actually in favor toward the stock design with the KLR and CV in place since you maintain greater knock protection as well as overboost protection. Remember, once you bypass the CV and use a MBC, the DME/KLR has no way to lower your boost level if knock is detected. The DME will first retard the timing to attempt to eliminate the knock, but if that is not enough, it will try to lower the boost, but can only do so by controlling the CV. If you bypass this valve, then nothing happens, and you stay at full boost (damaging your engine).

To me, that is why the SciVision kit is the most appealing.

IanS

Is it possible to use the SciVision KLR with other(Vitesse, GURU, etc) MAF/MAP kits instead of a MBC?

Andial951

Danny951,

Great explanation.....thanks. So 17.4 PSI then........thats pretty high......but I suppose if the chips work as Andrew says then all the protections are in place.

So now my question is how do other vendor's chips allow for overboost protection?

EDIT: Another question. Is it safe to use pump gas when running 17.4psi with the ProMax chips?

And another - Does it matter what type of turbo, injectors and such you have on your engine like it does with other vendor's chips or do the ProMax chips work regardless of what you have on your car?

danny951

No problem. And yes, that is my understanding.
I have been asking John Vitesse this same question but haven't gotten a straight answer yet after 3 emails back and forth. I will probably email Dave Lindsey and see what he says too. If their products allow for overboost and knock protection, I am curious to know how, seeing as how during installation the cycle valve gets bypassed. (?)
Not sure about your last two questions. Maybe Andrew or someone else can answer that.

danny951

Transaxle,

Thank you for adding to the conversation. Your posts are always very informative. I'm curious about one thing Andrew said a few posts up and maybe you can explain...

From what I have read elsewhere (and what I understand), this is not true. 1 bar of boost is simply the pressure of the air, but one turbo can flow more air than another turbo at the same pressure (1 bar). That is why some turbos make more HP at the same amount of boost as other turbos (i.e. K27/6 vs. K26/6). Does this not apply to measuring the air at the MAF sensor and determining fuel injection on your product?

promax_motorsport

Hi All,

The SciVision MAF works equally well with the factory set-up or a Manual Boost Control set-up using Guru/Vitesse or any other DME chip.

The important thing to understand is that most chip solutions do not have overboost protect and knock retard. As Thomas explains, this is very critical on the 951. With the SciVision chips, all these controls are in place and you can run increased boost (1.0 or 1.2 bar) in complete safety. If you have no knock control and you take the car on the circuit or drive at sustained high speed at almost maximum revs - there is a good chance that things will get hot and knock will take place. The SciVision chips allow the knock sensors to feed information to the ECU and induce ignition retard until the knock stops. If it's too severe - overboost protect will be triggered.

So, what does all this mean? It means you can achieve 300bhp with almost total safety knowing that you can push your engine to the max without worries of popping a head gasket or holing a piston.

The factory design using the cyling valve and Knock and Air Pressure Control computer (KLR is a german abbreviation for Knock Luft Regulator - Thomas will be able to confirm) is a very good one and ensures that everything is kept in check.

Hope that makes sense to everybody - please feel free to ask further questions.

Regards,
Andrew
www.promaxmotorsport.com

danny951

Actually, doesn't the DME still have the ability to retard timing (first by 3 degrees and then by an additional 3 degrees) in either case? The thing lost by bypassing the cycle valve is if that (ignition retard) is not enough to control the knock and boost needs to be lowered.

fast951

Danny951, Since my replies to your emails were not clear enough for you, let me try it here.

With the Vitesse software, the KLR will be able to detect knock AND will reduce timing regardless if you are using the stock CV or not.

For those using the CV the KLR still controls boost. However you will be limited to the amount of boost you can run. Limiting the boost you can run limits your performance. Also using the CV negates the use of a dual port WG, and reduces the area under the power curve. You decide what is important. Simply, if you want performance you MUST be responsible and control boost based based on the parameters your chip supplier tells you.

Meanwhile, Vitesse is working on a solution that gives you the best of both worlds. Get knock WARNING, and have the ability to perform anti-knock functions (user selectable).. Please stay tuned for future release...

Transaxle

Since the MAF kit was developed as a compatible replacement for the AFM it should run with the stabdard DME software. So we designed it for the 11.36 ms reading intervall.

The Bosch HFM5 sensor is very fast and precise. That means that it measures also the pulsation in the intake system. You could actually use it as a rpm-meter. Here is a picture that shows the differences (Yellow=MAF, Blue=AFM, Magenta=FT Signal):



The resolution on the timescale is 1 ms.

We read the MAF value every 0.6 ms and calculate the REAL massflow based on a 5 ms time window (= kg/5ms). That means the signal to the DME is updated every 5 ms based on ~8 measured MAF values.

Transaxle

This is done by the KLR. It retards timing and lowers boost if necessary. Without the CV it could just adjust timing. If that is still safe to control knock depends on the ignition timing table in the DME.

Transaxle

The airflow is defined by the mechanical layout of the engine. Main factors are the intake pressure, the head flow and the exhaust back pressure. Since the turbo is part of the exhaust system, different turbos can produce different back pressure - and you will see different HP numbers with the same intake pressure. The back pressure can be handled by ignition adjustment. The SciVision chips are flexible enough to work with the .6 and .8 hot sides.

Another point is a high volume stream that can't be delivered by a small turbo. In that case the pressure will drop at higher rpms.