Rich Sandor

Travis's car is an S2, no turbo. Sheldon's black car was a 2.8L w/ a bigger turbo. Brians car, back then, was pretty much bone stock. Mine had 15psi guru chips. IIRC the 928's were n/a, and at 120+mph did not pull away from the turbos. I know I was gaining very slowly at WOT but then again the 928s may have been backing off. As you said, it's not a scientific comparison! lol

The Hell's gate run was not that high above sea level. Average height ASL was about 1,500' to 2,000' which does not translate into a huge performance loss for the 928. Hot Arizona summer air at sea level would be more detrimental to performance.

SoloRacer

There was a local racer here who was racing a 928 (Mark was his name) and I know that he eventually stopped racing it because he kept breaking the same rear suspension part. Something in the weissach suspension kept getting broken. I don't know the full details (year of car, exact problem, etc.) but it seemed to me that this problem was not a one off occurance. He ended up selling the 928 and got a 993 Twin Turbo.

As for extra torque making up for weight that might be true in accelerating in a straight line - however trying to slow down that extra weight or make it change directions quickly is a different story. A Kenworth could have 50/50 weight distribution but wouldn't stop or corner better than a lightweight car just because it makes more torque.

Matt H

lart - I saw Mark's 951 and I will vouch for it. Not only was it one of the nicest 951s I have ever seen it was BLAZING fast. He doesnt need me to stick up for him but Mark knows fast. He used to own a shop that specialized in it. I have seen cars in his parking lot that would SMOKE a 951, even had a hand in building a few of them.
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Imo000

I agree, the 951s are lighter hence handle a little better than a 928. However, handling will only get you so far. A boosted 928 can be a slightly slower around the curves than a moded 951. The problem is that as soon as the turn is over, the slight handling advantage of the 951 becomes irrelevant.

My SD-ed '85 928 is about the same weight as a non boosted 928. It made arond 400HP (12.8sec)withouth an intercooler and only 6psi of boost. With the parts I made or bought for it this year, I'm planning on putting down 400 at the wheels. Total cost for the entire supercharger build, including this years parts, was ~$1500. Can a 951 be modifed to make this much for so little?

Kit_Chris

Hmm, a 928GTS was running with the club a few years back and he gave even the most highly modded 951s a run for their money (at Tremblant I believe), the immense torque of the motor had something to do with it, the driver was excellent. Reaction time may be slower due to increased weight, but the package has been tuned and balanced to perfection by Porsche, you can't beast the thing in corners but driven as engineers intended, it's definitely a heck of a car. Style, comfort, huge torque from a great sounding V8, superb handling (yet different than the 951), it's one of Porsches greats! All engine maintenance is double that of a 944 however..

Regards,
Chris

Rich Sandor

I agree, to a point. What if there are more corners than straights? Don't forget that the shark's brakes get more of a workout too. I dunno, I like both cars a lot, I just think the 951 makes a better track car, while the 928 is the ultimate GT car.

Imo000, would you mind filling me in on what you've done/bought/made for your 928? I've love to get one someday and SC it.

MarkRobinson

Thanks for the words Matt. (I miss my 951...but hey, 33k talks!)

928's never break suspension parts: they're over-built. That guy *may* have had a stroker or so, or could have had some funky alignment that was tweaking a part...like I said, I've never heard of that & I know all the 928 "guys".

928 maintenance is only double for spark plugs, wires, caps & rotors. Waterpump & tbelt is about the same as the 951, though, I can do a 928 clutch with adjustment in about 3 hours.

dont get me wrong: 951's are THE best bang for the buck out there, a real marvel in engineering. It's not the same car as a 928. It's lighter, more practical, more tossable, & ferociously fast. Now, go drive a 928. It's the mercedes of Porsches, but with a little help, they're the AMG of Mercedes.

'86.5 & UP Sharks have the '89 944 turbo brakes on it, but pre-vin xxx1000, you have 944-ish brakes that need help. I love both cars, I just have to buy a lift before I buy another 951 (wife's rule on that).

Peace brothas..

M758

The 928 is a very different car from a 944 Turbo.

I have Turbo S stock, my parents have stock 91 S4 auto. I have taken both on 700+ mile drives along some very twisty roads.

There is vast difference in the cars. On acceleration they are similar. 316hp and 3600lbs vs 247 hp and 3200 lbs. The 951 "feels" quicker and proabably is by tad. The auto does sap some hp.

On the road teh 928 is more comfortable. It is quieter and has a better ride. It move effortlessly at speed and really comes alive at 80 mph. Great car for making a Phx to LA run at calm easy 120 to 130 mph. The 951 could do it too, but it would not be as relaxed. In gentle sweeping bends the car shines. The route I drove the car on also had 60 miles of 20-60 mph corners on an uphill climb. In the 951 the car can be thrown into corners with gusto and it really gets fun so long as you keep the revs north of 3000 RPM. Given the gearing and the tighteness of some corners even 2nd gear is bit tall. Still it is a reall blast.

The same road in 928 is vastly different. You then start to feel the mass of the car. You have to work much harder to make the car turn, but it does stick very well. In general it takes more effort to get the car tossed into a corner. However you can exit rather fast since the there is so much torque in the engine that you can pull out of any corner with ease.

Really it is a very different car the 928. Nice, but provides a much different experience than a 951.

MarkRobinson

I wish more people could compare a 5-speed 928S to a 951. 80% of 928's are autos, & autos, for the most part, are pigs by comparison.

Lance J

my 1979 928 5-speed @ 8.5:1 compression. makes the same amount of 200 rwhp as a stock 951. but try to find a unmodded 951. my car weights in at 2986lbs. the 79 are perfect for boosting once you ditch the CIS but 911 make low 400rwhp with CIS all day. I can with ease run 1.1 bar. the 951 is a better bang for you buck until the shark owner bites the bullet and goes forced fed.

M758

Acceleration was only a part of my comparison and not a large one. My 944 Turbo S maybe a bit faster, maybe not. At the end of the day the differece in acceleration from a stop is not all that important.

What I loved about the 928 was the torque and effortless speed & comfort.
What I did not like was the extra heft. It was nowhere near as tossalbe in the tighter corners. You could MAKE the 928 corner well, but you had to force the car. My stock 944 Turbo loves to corner even in the tight stuff.

Now on an open road (2 lane curvy or freeway) where I had cross between two cities 250 to 300 miles apart at high speed. 928 all the way The car is just perfect (even in auto form) for that type of use.

Now for a spirited run up twisty mountain road 944 Turbo!

Both cars just have a very different feel. A 928 (5spd or auto) is simply a heavier car and more suited to Grand Touring than flogging in the twisties. There is nothing wrong with that and it certinaly does not make the 928 a bad car.

lart951

Man, I am sorry but I am going to call BS on your story.
I dare you to show me. where I can buy a turbo kit or SC kit for the 928 under $ 2000.00.

Mr. Robinson as well as you and other guys from the 928 crowd use as a point of reference your 1/4 mile times to indicate the speed superiority of the 928 over the 951. It's well known that the 951 is a poor performer at the drag strip, the 944 turbos requires serious clutch abuse in order to be launch properly. If I am not mistaken it was one of our members badcoupe that holds the record for the best time from a 951 on the drag strip, I think he managed a 12.3 time. Anyway 944T guys use benchmarks like 60-100mph or 80-120mph or 120-150mph and you will find out that’s where the 951 shines.

From a standing still a modded 928 vs a modded 951 with similar power, the 928 will win, it's all about torque and displacement right? I don't think no one here can argue that. But with the same cars do the test from a roll and you will have different results. I personally don’t have much respect for drag racing, living your life10sec at a time is indeed a challenge for the "fats and the furious", but will never come close to an endurance road race.

I know about Mark's Anderson fast 928 and I do not argue that he has a one hell of fast car, but how many more 928's do you see winning out there? maybe a handful?

And at last should I be surprise that a turbo charged or super charged 928 is faster than a 951? well I guess not, if you take into consideration the fact that the 928 has double the displacement and double the cylinders.

Please check the next 2006 pca results and pin point me to where the fast 928's are. I just want evidence and I will be a believer.

http://www.pca.org/clubrace/2006_results/index.htm

Please excuse my poor grammar since English is my 2nd language.

TIA

Lart

M758

Lart,

In all out racing form a 928 can be a formidable car.
They have plenty of lag free hp even in relativly stock form. Their biggest gain however is suspension and wheel/tires.

The 928 can stuff some very large rubber under it with no body mods. Plus the suspension design is better than the 944/951/968.

Therefore if you get the weight of the 928 down to similar levels as a 951 it will be a better race car. At 2600lbs it'd take 350whp 928 NA vs 350 whp 951 anyday. Hell even with 50 more hp a 928 wil have decient shot and probalby be alot more reliable that the 400 whp 951.

Of course you don't see many 928 race cars. I can only figure that most folks don't know enough to build them or have a hard time finding 5spd donor cars.

lart951

That's my point, where are they?

MarkRobinson

Well, talk like yours is penetrating people who've never driven a 5-speed 928, so it's easier to go 951.

I loved my 951's, but the turbo 928 pulls much harder up top with less effort/boost/edginess: the extra displacement holds the torque curve longer, at least 1000rpm more during the power band, & can surpass 200mph with only 370rwhp/tq or so since the gears are taller than the 951's.

Like I said earlier, unless you've driven a boosted 5-speed 928, I don't see how you can argue your point. The 928 is not a superior car, just a completely over-looked grand touring car that proves to be quite competitive once set up. 951's are more set-up out of the box, with tons of mods available for them. Give me stock-motor'd 951 against my stock-motor'd Turbo 928, and I'm gonna beat you: 0-60, 1/4 mile, 100-150, 150-200, you name it. It's an incredible car now...it was just incredibly fun & misunderstood car before the turbo.

I'm sure there are a few 951's out there that can hang with my car, but will have at least the 6k it costs to turbo the 928.