MAF versus MAP
02-09-2006, 12:11 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by J Chen
Though I have not gone standalone but will do in the
coming months, it is my opinion after studying a number
of standalone, I've come to the conclusion that the HKS
Fcon V pro is one of the best if not the best out there.
Why, cause I had the opportunity to drive a couple of
Scoobies fitted with different ECU's & the HKS unit
comes up tops in terms of drivability especially on
highly modified engines. Yes alot still depends on
the mapping but the resolution of the Fcon is really
second to none Motec included really really sharp
throttle response with very little turbo lag
coming months, it is my opinion after studying a number
of standalone, I've come to the conclusion that the HKS
Fcon V pro is one of the best if not the best out there.
Why, cause I had the opportunity to drive a couple of
Scoobies fitted with different ECU's & the HKS unit
comes up tops in terms of drivability especially on
highly modified engines. Yes alot still depends on
the mapping but the resolution of the Fcon is really
second to none Motec included really really sharp
throttle response with very little turbo lag
Not really, the HKS Fcon V pro is just like the Greddy Emanage/Ultimate. A piggyback that allows you to run standalone functions while keeping the factory ECU/DME.
Problem with the HKS Fcon V pro is that you can't really tune the engine, since you need specific software to make it run. Only authorised HKS dealers have access to this software, so you need to drop by the HKS dealer, and have the car tuned/re-mapped. You can imagine the extra charges there, not including having the car on a dyno as well.
This was the main reason for me to go for the eManage Ultimate over the HKS, offcourse, if and a BIG if you can get the HKS software, you can do the tuning you'reself, at an additional price for the software (if the HKS dealer gives it to you anyways). How did you're friends' access the software??
02-10-2006, 03:35 AM
#32
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Hey Hos,
Your'e correct about going to an HKS dealer but wrong about
the V-pro being a piggy bag. It can work both ways. You can either
piggy bag or go full standalone. For me cost is a none issue as the
HKS dealer is a buddy of mine. Besides, why would you want to tune
yourself when you have an expert who's been rank as among the
top 5 F-con tuner in the world by HKS Japan. In terms of total resolution,
the E-mange doe'nt even come close.
Your'e correct about going to an HKS dealer but wrong about
the V-pro being a piggy bag. It can work both ways. You can either
piggy bag or go full standalone. For me cost is a none issue as the
HKS dealer is a buddy of mine. Besides, why would you want to tune
yourself when you have an expert who's been rank as among the
top 5 F-con tuner in the world by HKS Japan. In terms of total resolution,
the E-mange doe'nt even come close.
02-10-2006, 04:29 AM
#33
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Chen, you are describing you're situation. Here, the HSK dealer charges roughly $110/ hour. The dyno's here (cheapest one i found) was for $135/hour, so that is $245/hour in total. You are lucky, every mod you make would be free/cheap, but it would be a fortune here.
As for the way the V-pro runs, the only way i saw it hooked up was in piggyback mode and not standalone, but i still preferr the emanage ultimate, it is easy, simple and tuner friendly, but this is my opinion
Jeff: Look at the thread for the Tec-3 for sale, Mike is selling it for $2,800 with harness and full support from Chris White, that is a good deal.
As for the way the V-pro runs, the only way i saw it hooked up was in piggyback mode and not standalone, but i still preferr the emanage ultimate, it is easy, simple and tuner friendly, but this is my opinion
Jeff: Look at the thread for the Tec-3 for sale, Mike is selling it for $2,800 with harness and full support from Chris White, that is a good deal.
02-10-2006, 11:19 AM
#34
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As I have said before…
Most important is support
Second most important is tuner’s familiarity with the engine
Third most important is the actual product.
One of the most valuable quotes I got (for a Dyno operator) was “what’s your R&D budget?”. I looked at him and thought about how much I was going to spend on dyno time (I had already reserved it for 4 hours!) and I really didn’t have an answer. So he clarified his question. He said the only way we will know the absolute limit of the engine is to break it….
Do you want your tuner to do R&D on your motor?
Chris White
Most important is support
Second most important is tuner’s familiarity with the engine
Third most important is the actual product.
One of the most valuable quotes I got (for a Dyno operator) was “what’s your R&D budget?”. I looked at him and thought about how much I was going to spend on dyno time (I had already reserved it for 4 hours!) and I really didn’t have an answer. So he clarified his question. He said the only way we will know the absolute limit of the engine is to break it….
Do you want your tuner to do R&D on your motor?
Chris White
02-10-2006, 12:17 PM
#35
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Thanks for the good info here. . . I think MAP/standalone is definitely the way to go over a piggyback & MAF - at least for me. I originally wanted to avoid having to be an electronics geek with this stuff, but upon looking into it more, it really doesn't look that bad and the degree of tunability you can get with a standalone is heads-and-shoulders above any MAF setup out there from what I can see. . . Yes, it's expensive, but not that much more so than some of the MAF kits out there. IMO it's worth it to spend a little more up front and get something that's going to give better results, bigger numbers and last forever.
Now I just gotta' choke up that $3,500 for a new TEC-3r. . . Might have to wait a bit on that, but that's definitely the way I'm leaning right now. I'd prefer a new one with a warranty even if I have to build the harness. Big deal.
Now I just gotta' choke up that $3,500 for a new TEC-3r. . . Might have to wait a bit on that, but that's definitely the way I'm leaning right now. I'd prefer a new one with a warranty even if I have to build the harness. Big deal.
02-10-2006, 12:39 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by Chris White
As I have said before…
Most important is support
Second most important is tuner’s familiarity with the engine
Third most important is the actual product.
One of the most valuable quotes I got (for a Dyno operator) was “what’s your R&D budget?”. I looked at him and thought about how much I was going to spend on dyno time (I had already reserved it for 4 hours!) and I really didn’t have an answer. So he clarified his question. He said the only way we will know the absolute limit of the engine is to break it….
Do you want your tuner to do R&D on your motor?
Chris White
Most important is support
Second most important is tuner’s familiarity with the engine
Third most important is the actual product.
One of the most valuable quotes I got (for a Dyno operator) was “what’s your R&D budget?”. I looked at him and thought about how much I was going to spend on dyno time (I had already reserved it for 4 hours!) and I really didn’t have an answer. So he clarified his question. He said the only way we will know the absolute limit of the engine is to break it….
Do you want your tuner to do R&D on your motor?
Chris White
02-10-2006, 01:55 PM
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Agreed. Excellent post, Chris !
I've taken out a few head gaskets (and the odd conrod) over the years on different projects pushing to find limits. Paid the price and learned a lot along the way.
Development is a very expensive and high risk path to tread. Only do it if you can afford to break it.
I've also come across some real dangerous stuff, lots of things that don't work as claimed and a whole load of BS. Maybe an equal number of things that didn't deliver as things that did. The Dyno and G-Tech tell the story ...
Rick.
I've taken out a few head gaskets (and the odd conrod) over the years on different projects pushing to find limits. Paid the price and learned a lot along the way.
Development is a very expensive and high risk path to tread. Only do it if you can afford to break it.
I've also come across some real dangerous stuff, lots of things that don't work as claimed and a whole load of BS. Maybe an equal number of things that didn't deliver as things that did. The Dyno and G-Tech tell the story ...
Rick.
02-10-2006, 03:29 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by eastendr
The Dyno and G-Tech tell the story ...
Rick.
Rick.
Sry, but G-Tech is crap, plain & simple. How do I know? Working as a car jpurnalist has it's benefits: we have 5th wheel setup and we did an experiment where we compared G-Tech readings with 5th wheel readings and the result was that G-Tech was "better", showing a lot more optimistic numbers.
02-10-2006, 03:35 PM
#39
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The absolute numbers tell you nothing, even with a dyno - what a G-tech does give is accurate RELATIVE numbers, making it a usable tuning reference.
Sam
Sam
02-10-2006, 08:06 PM
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Totall agree, Sam. That's just how my G-Tech s used - make a change, overlay the data - go forward or back.
However, it does relate rather accurately to the Dyno Dynamics that I use at Silverstone for a more accurate assessment and comparisson. It's also useful to check the wide band against the very regularly calibrated one on the DD.
The G-Tech also has the added benefit of giving 'on the road' performance figures, something the dyno will not...
Before I got the G-Tech RR, I used to use a device called a 'Road Dyno' for making comparative plots ...
Apologies for taking thread this OT
Rick.
However, it does relate rather accurately to the Dyno Dynamics that I use at Silverstone for a more accurate assessment and comparisson. It's also useful to check the wide band against the very regularly calibrated one on the DD.
The G-Tech also has the added benefit of giving 'on the road' performance figures, something the dyno will not...
Before I got the G-Tech RR, I used to use a device called a 'Road Dyno' for making comparative plots ...
Apologies for taking thread this OT
Rick.
02-11-2006, 04:22 PM
#43
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interesting on hks f-con pro.ive been looking at alot of import SEM systems and was wondering what will work with the 951.about the hks writer theres one on ebay right now. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Authe...QQcmdZViewItem
