Which MAF to go with?
01-24-2006, 04:19 PM
#31
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A new 4Runner AND a MAF?
Where did you bury her body???
Where did you bury her body???
01-24-2006, 08:31 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by f1rocks
You're gonna get in trouble.....at least get some letters in red below your name and how about ones that match JV's letters before offering a free plug on product...
As I have said coutless time on this forum - if I could get someone from Rennlist to help us sort out sposorship of this forum - I'd jump at it.
I'm not sure what the issue is. JD has asked whoever's responsible to contact us. Still nothing!
I'll try and wake 'em up again tomorrow.
Regards,
Andrew
01-24-2006, 08:57 PM
#35
Racer
MAF Kit - ProMAX vs. Vitesse
Originally Posted by fast951
Andrew, thank you for bringing up the pricing issue. I never compare our products to anyone else, but since you started it. Let's investigate this a bit more.
- When does the MAF you sell Max out. The Bosch unit you are using is rated at how much flow? Does it flow much more than the stock AFM?
- Does your kit suports larger injectors with a smooth idle? Can you run 72# or 83# injectors if needed, and keep nice idle and crisp response?
Not putting down your products, but before you comapre your product to Vitesse, it's best to show the complete picture. Fair is fair...
- When does the MAF you sell Max out. The Bosch unit you are using is rated at how much flow? Does it flow much more than the stock AFM?
- Does your kit suports larger injectors with a smooth idle? Can you run 72# or 83# injectors if needed, and keep nice idle and crisp response?
Not putting down your products, but before you comapre your product to Vitesse, it's best to show the complete picture. Fair is fair...
The product we sell is quite a different solution to the Vitesse offering. I would not for a moment suggest that it is a comparable product to the Vitesse solution (as it works very differently). Our solution uses a signal processing computer (with customisable processor) to convert the MAF signal into an AFM compatible signal for the DME (that expects an analogue voltage signal).
The Bosch HFM5 does flow a lot better than the stock AFM. I can not give you exact CFM figures (as we have not flow tested it) - but the air is effectively passing through a 3" diameter pipe on its way to the Airbox. The hot film element is very small - hence offers very little restriction.
I have not tried injectors other than 55# and standard 34.5# injectors. We tested a car today with this kit, 55# injectors and LR Super 61 Turbo. Peak power was 314rwhp (369.5 bhp at flywheel). I'm sure I can tweak the WOT 2D fuel and ignition values a little further to liberate a bit more power. ;-)
When I run my 3.225 litre engine up, I will be using 72# injectors, hence should be able to test it then. I don't for see any issues running larger injectors. We will soon have a USB palm/pc programmable DME to make this process easier (hopefully next month).
As I explained, our kit is different. It seems to appeal to 951 owners who want the performance without any set-up and who also want stealth looks. It's hard to spot that our kit has been fitted as it is barely visible. It also works with the standard air box. With our 1.0 bar MAF chipset (developed by SciVision, not us), the MAF KLR/DME combination takes care of knock and AFR leaving the driver free to enjoy 300bhp (255 rwhp) - varies from car to car.
As you know, we would love to sell Vitesse product over here - but the pricing makes it difficult for the UK market. I have every respect for Vitesse products and respect to you for taking over the 'performance mantle' (now that GURU, SFR, Huntley [where did Derek go?] etc. are no more / not active on Rennlist [sorry Tim R, I know you're still about]).
As always, there are different ways of achieving the same objective. Our MAF kit does work very well. The biggest difference is the greatly improved driving manners once fitted (smoother idle, better return to idle, instant throttle response and greater torque spread with less lag).
All,
The group buy will continue at $849.95 landed in any USA state until further notice (just order direct - no need to contact Efren [thanks buddy for stimulating the interest])!
And just in case anybody doesn't take all that in - we think John's products are great. Our MAF is not the same - it's different.
Have a good evening all.
Regards,
Andrew
01-24-2006, 09:08 PM
#36
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Skip,
I will never again mess around with a MAF setup that uses a converted AFM signal.
The Vitesse MAF with software board is the way to go.
Also, didn't John mention something about an upcoming sale?
I will never again mess around with a MAF setup that uses a converted AFM signal.
The Vitesse MAF with software board is the way to go.
Also, didn't John mention something about an upcoming sale?
01-24-2006, 09:22 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by promax_motorsport
Hi John,
The Bosch HFM5 does flow a lot better than the stock AFM. I can not give you exact CFM figures (as we have not flow tested it) - but the air is effectively passing through a 3" diameter pipe on its way to the Airbox. The hot film element is very small - hence offers very little restriction.
The Bosch HFM5 does flow a lot better than the stock AFM. I can not give you exact CFM figures (as we have not flow tested it) - but the air is effectively passing through a 3" diameter pipe on its way to the Airbox. The hot film element is very small - hence offers very little restriction.
Andrew, I am glad you responded in the manner you did, this should be the way all debates are conducted, very civilised. The size of the MAF, in this case 3", has nothing to do with the flow capabilities of the MAF. The calibration is what matters. The MAF you are useing is rated at a fairly low flow value, which means it will reach its MAX voltage early on in the RPM range, especially if you turn up the boost or if you have a good flowing engine/turbo. My information is based on Bosch documentation...
As far as the stealth mode, this is great, however you still have the converter box to deal with. Based on the requests we are receiving, we are looking at delivering a stealth kit as well...
As far as a debate between a sponsor or not, I think we should keep it to product comparison no matter whose product it is. I'm sure Andrew will become a sponsor, and I will be the irst one to welcome him.
01-25-2006, 12:37 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by fast951
Very good question, glad you asked! We use the MAF signal to calculate load, we use the proper transfer function based on the MAF calibration (there is a unique transfer function for each MAF style and calibration). MAF sensors that look the same may not have the same calibration. So one size fits all does not work, not if you want it done correctly.
Once the load value is calculated properly, it its used downstream for Fuel and Timing. A MAF voltage is nothing but a signal, it does not need to max out at TOP power. As long as you interpret the signal properly, there is no issue.
WOT timing is a different story alltogether. We rely on experience to fill in the blanks...
When a signal massager (piggyback) is used to translate the MAF signal to look like AFM signal so the DME running AFM chip understands it, you get into trouble. The MAF is generating a signal which you are changing before it gets to the DME. The DME now uses the modifed signal and calculates a load value. This load value is not the actual or REAL value. You go ahead and use the incorrect value, and you will pickup the incorrect timing, mainly at Part Throttle.. This mismatch in load can be noticed in many ways, some of which is hesitaion..
Many MAF are out there, and many people are offering more and more products. However, Vitesse is the ONLY one offering a comprehensive solution, not just Band Aid. The more modified the car, the more important it is to get the correct software. If you just want a "cheap" solution, just keep the AFM in place.
Once the load value is calculated properly, it its used downstream for Fuel and Timing. A MAF voltage is nothing but a signal, it does not need to max out at TOP power. As long as you interpret the signal properly, there is no issue.
WOT timing is a different story alltogether. We rely on experience to fill in the blanks...
When a signal massager (piggyback) is used to translate the MAF signal to look like AFM signal so the DME running AFM chip understands it, you get into trouble. The MAF is generating a signal which you are changing before it gets to the DME. The DME now uses the modifed signal and calculates a load value. This load value is not the actual or REAL value. You go ahead and use the incorrect value, and you will pickup the incorrect timing, mainly at Part Throttle.. This mismatch in load can be noticed in many ways, some of which is hesitaion..
Many MAF are out there, and many people are offering more and more products. However, Vitesse is the ONLY one offering a comprehensive solution, not just Band Aid. The more modified the car, the more important it is to get the correct software. If you just want a "cheap" solution, just keep the AFM in place.
I hope you didn't take this post or my skepticism personally. I just like to understand what specifically the differences are and get some feedback on real world experiences/data of the non-piggyback systems - it's the engineer in me. Just because a car feels great, doesn't mean your ARF is not on the ragged edge and your one hot day on the track away from a blown headgasket or a grenaded engine - which was why I was interested in seeing actual AFR data.
David - thanks for posting - I've learned over the years you are a straight shooter and appreciate the input.
Jesse - any dyno info would be great. You can email me at skips951@aol.com if it is easier.
Mike - I would very much like to check out your system. Always nice to be able to see things first hand and talk it over face to face with a local guy. Not sure if your car is away for the winter, but if this mild weather keeps up maybe we can set something up.
Andy, Jimbo, Ted, etc. - thanks for the input. Ted you better not be talking about the January sale that's sold out and falsely getting my hopes up.
And finally Pierson - my wife already knows your a trouble maker so I just need to keep telling her that you tend to exagerate and that of course I would never spend all the money Dan claims I am spending on the car ; ')
01-25-2006, 02:24 AM
#39
If I find a good donor car someday soon--I will do a direct comparison between 2 different MAF's and 2 different AFM setups. with and without messaging the signal. I have run 2 different cars with over 600hp fitted with stock AFM. that had no improvement going to MAF or MAP. Just switching to MAF does not equal better performance. you need the right software to achieve that. From what I know to date on turbo cars - software tweaking makes a bigger difference than switching the hardware when it comes to pre throttle body. I am still not totally sold on the theoretical MAX of any AFM type system on our cars. (365rwhp) seems to be the number most commonly used.
Unfortunately not everyone has capital available to spend. Some people have to save up a long time to get an extra grand for a part. and not get the performance increase for months while they save up. so please remember to respect that certain people's view might be based on this.
Unfortunately not everyone has capital available to spend. Some people have to save up a long time to get an extra grand for a part. and not get the performance increase for months while they save up. so please remember to respect that certain people's view might be based on this.
01-25-2006, 07:11 AM
#40
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Originally Posted by fast951
Andrew, I am glad you responded in the manner you did, this should be the way all debates are conducted, very civilised.
ahhhhh.....there is hope for rennlist afterall. Definately nice to see some civilized debating going on. Its very much appreciated by myself and others I'm sure.
01-25-2006, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Andial951
ahhhhh.....there is hope for rennlist afterall. Definately nice to see some civilized debating going on. Its very much appreciated by myself and others I'm sure.
01-25-2006, 10:33 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by fast951
Andrew, I am glad you responded in the manner you did, this should be the way all debates are conducted, very civilised. The size of the MAF, in this case 3", has nothing to do with the flow capabilities of the MAF. The calibration is what matters. The MAF you are useing is rated at a fairly low flow value, which means it will reach its MAX voltage early on in the RPM range, especially if you turn up the boost or if you have a good flowing engine/turbo. My information is based on Bosch documentation...
As far as the stealth mode, this is great, however you still have the converter box to deal with. Based on the requests we are receiving, we are looking at delivering a stealth kit as well...
As far as a debate between a sponsor or not, I think we should keep it to product comparison no matter whose product it is. I'm sure Andrew will become a sponsor, and I will be the irst one to welcome him.
As far as the stealth mode, this is great, however you still have the converter box to deal with. Based on the requests we are receiving, we are looking at delivering a stealth kit as well...
As far as a debate between a sponsor or not, I think we should keep it to product comparison no matter whose product it is. I'm sure Andrew will become a sponsor, and I will be the irst one to welcome him.
Absolutely - I agree. Who remembers the Dave Lindsey / Tim Richards debates a few years back (2000 actually)? ;-)
Anyway, sure I understand what you are saying. I will comment on the flow rate question a little later, as I want to be totally sure of my facts first. I can only say that we have no issues running the MAF on a high boost car (1.3 bar). We use a different MAF signal processor for higher boost settings. There are also many different types of HFM5 MAF from Bosch.
I wrote another message to JD today - about Rennlist Sponsorship. So, I'm trying.
Have a good day all.
Regards,
Andrew
01-25-2006, 11:32 AM
#43
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Originally Posted by Skip Wolfe
Andy, Jimbo, Ted, etc. - thanks for the input. Ted you better not be talking about the January sale that's sold out and falsely getting my hopes up.
Since we already got your hopes up! The items allocated for sale did not last long. To make a believer out of you, contact me directly, I'll see what I can do.
01-25-2006, 11:44 AM
#45
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Originally Posted by Skip Wolfe
And finally Pierson - my wife already knows your a trouble maker so I just need to keep telling her that you tend to exagerate and that of course I would never spend all the money Dan claims I am spending on the car ; ')
How's that truck? Could you sleep in it if you had nowhere else to go?