3.0 Liter Options
11-03-2005, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 951and944S
The point is evil, that even before dlr944 reposted with what parts he *did* have already upgraded there were posts throwing out 20K for an engine build.
TS
TS
11-03-2005, 03:24 PM
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"Here again...what difference would it make if you bought a used block and went to first oversized pistons or a used crankshaft that needed a .25-.50 millimeter oversize bearing set when *BOTH* of these procedures are factory authorized and can be accomplished with the used of Porsche parts...?"
This is a fair point, but the factory didn't authorize a 3.0 8 valve turbo. You don't want to cheap this build out.
This is a fair point, but the factory didn't authorize a 3.0 8 valve turbo. You don't want to cheap this build out.
11-03-2005, 03:45 PM
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I was the first person who chimed in and I just threw the $20k figure out there. I don't have experience with this and it was meant as a bit of a joke. That is why I said step 2 was "beats me".
I had heard ranges from $10k to $20k to go from a bone stock 2.5L turbo motor to an appropriately built 3.0L turbo motor from people after they had completed their projects. Now obviously there is a much leeway in the "appropriately" condition. At the same time, there is nobody in their right mind that believes it would be appropriate to keep a K26 and stock chips for a 3.0L.
Now if we are talking about a bare minimum (no clutch, turbo, ems, etc.) long block with no upgrades (stock rods, crank, etc.), I think TS is probably right. At the same time, you absolutely WILL buy those other parts due to making the displacement change. There is no question about it.
In the end, I would say 10k-20k is reasonable for start to finish project (not including brakes, suspension and tranny upgrades). The reason people are so quick to throw this figure out there is that many people start down the path of building a 3.0L under the assumption that they can do it for $5-7k. They build the very basic stripped long block and spend $6k. Then they realize they still need to spend $3-5k to finish it off correctly.
I had heard ranges from $10k to $20k to go from a bone stock 2.5L turbo motor to an appropriately built 3.0L turbo motor from people after they had completed their projects. Now obviously there is a much leeway in the "appropriately" condition. At the same time, there is nobody in their right mind that believes it would be appropriate to keep a K26 and stock chips for a 3.0L.
Now if we are talking about a bare minimum (no clutch, turbo, ems, etc.) long block with no upgrades (stock rods, crank, etc.), I think TS is probably right. At the same time, you absolutely WILL buy those other parts due to making the displacement change. There is no question about it.
In the end, I would say 10k-20k is reasonable for start to finish project (not including brakes, suspension and tranny upgrades). The reason people are so quick to throw this figure out there is that many people start down the path of building a 3.0L under the assumption that they can do it for $5-7k. They build the very basic stripped long block and spend $6k. Then they realize they still need to spend $3-5k to finish it off correctly.
11-03-2005, 04:06 PM
#34
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Appreciate all the inputs. Just to clarify, I am most interested in understanding the necessary mechanical components to build a 3.0 liter. I prefer not to debut costs but instead learn what options and modifications are required for this type of build. There seems to be many configurations and options to build a long block.
To summarize, is this a correct list of major mechanical items or modifications for long-block?:
1. 3.0 liter block (968 perfer due oil squirters)
2. 104mm Mahle turbo pistons
3. Rods (if one choses to replace)
4. Modification to 2.5 liter oil pan or modicafication to 3.0 liter oil pan (not sure what's the best option?)
5. Modification to 2.5 liter head or 2.7 head (seems like their is some debut over what's best?)
6. 3.0 liter crank
Anything else?
Also, I don't know what is meant by over-sized pistons vs 104mm?
"FYI, Lindsey does not have the 104mm pistons despite what their web site says. The only have the over-sized available. The last time I spoke with Andial (a month or two ago) they didn’t have the 104’s either and didn’t have them in sight any time soon so 1st oversized is the only option right now which is going to add an extra $500."
Lastely, can a 2.5 liter block be turned into a 3.0 liter motor - more specifically, by using MID (Darton) sleeves with 104mm pistons and a 3.0 liter crank will result in 3.0 liters of displacement?
Thanks,
To summarize, is this a correct list of major mechanical items or modifications for long-block?:
1. 3.0 liter block (968 perfer due oil squirters)
2. 104mm Mahle turbo pistons
3. Rods (if one choses to replace)
4. Modification to 2.5 liter oil pan or modicafication to 3.0 liter oil pan (not sure what's the best option?)
5. Modification to 2.5 liter head or 2.7 head (seems like their is some debut over what's best?)
6. 3.0 liter crank
Anything else?
Also, I don't know what is meant by over-sized pistons vs 104mm?
"FYI, Lindsey does not have the 104mm pistons despite what their web site says. The only have the over-sized available. The last time I spoke with Andial (a month or two ago) they didn’t have the 104’s either and didn’t have them in sight any time soon so 1st oversized is the only option right now which is going to add an extra $500."
Lastely, can a 2.5 liter block be turned into a 3.0 liter motor - more specifically, by using MID (Darton) sleeves with 104mm pistons and a 3.0 liter crank will result in 3.0 liters of displacement?
Thanks,
11-03-2005, 07:34 PM
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"Lastely, can a 2.5 liter block be turned into a 3.0 liter motor - more specifically, by using MID (Darton) sleeves with 104mm pistons and a 3.0 liter crank will result in 3.0 liters of displacement?
Thanks,"
Yep. Chris White does it for 2850.00 The girdle needs some machining, and you'll need JE pistons, and carillo rods, which he includes. That's his short block price. He can go as high as 106mm on a 3.0 block, or 104mm on a 2.5. It really makes a 2.7 ltr a super option if you don't have a 3.0 crank already, or if it needs a + sized bearing. Still makes a ton of power. (double check the price in the MID thread, but I think its right. The sleeves completely replace the cylinders so the condition of the walls doesn't matter. It's a great option for a lot of people, as it doesn't cost any more than a stock 2.5.
As far as over sized, the stock 968 (s2) pistons have too much compression, so they won't work for a turbo application. (I guess you could have them machined to match?) You have to source 104mm 968 turbo pistons. They are VERY rare. There are some other custom options, but most go with a sleeved block and JE, or other pistons because it comes out the same or cheaper, and the replacement costs on pistons is much cheaper down the line. They are talking about 100.5mm (oversize) pistons. About six months ago Andial had a set of 104.5 pistons that were suitable, but i was told they are gone. IIRC they were 1800.00.
As far as the squirters, that's a give or take choice. You'll save money with a 2.5,MID setup, over machining the 3.0 (well someone would without access to machine capabilities that you have) or you mate up a head to match the 3.0 in order to utilize the squirters. I rate that as a toss up. For you it may be right to mate the head, since you have the 968 engine already.
The main problem you have concerning rods, is that the 968 wasn't designed for the abuse of a turbo, and the pistons aren't properly dished.. I "believe" that the rods are cast rather than forged, where the 951 rods are forged. However 951 rods would have to be machined becuase of the wrist pins to make the right space for the increased stroke of the 88 mm crank, so you may be better off just buying after market ready to go.
I also think the oil pan is a toss up. Use either one, you can mod them effectively the same way.
You might look into having the crank crossdrilled while you're addressing the oiling issue, but that's clearly an option.
The debate over 2.5 head vs. 2.7 is really one of luck and convenience IMHO. If you can pick up a 2.7 head at a super price, go for it, and match it up. A 2.5 will also be fine. Put a big valve 2.5 head on and you already have the headers mated without drama. The ceramics aren't important,(However you don't want a POS head where the ceramics will break apart and find your turbo!) as you will be pumping so much more exhaust volume, and its heat, that maintaining heat that close to the cylinders isn't great. Either way you'll be pushing .5 more ltr of exhaust through pipes designed for 2.5. Heat and velocity will take care of themselves in the exhaust manifold. That's also why you don't need LR's modification if you don't desire it. It may add a touch, but for how much money?
Lastly the crank. A lot of people swear by the quick spin up of knife edged cranks. I have no opinion. I think it's a trade off. I wonder about the durability on a street car if the goal is 100K miles?
Otherwise you've got the major basics.
Would you be using your current 2.5 motor as the donor for parts like the IC?
Thanks,"
Yep. Chris White does it for 2850.00 The girdle needs some machining, and you'll need JE pistons, and carillo rods, which he includes. That's his short block price. He can go as high as 106mm on a 3.0 block, or 104mm on a 2.5. It really makes a 2.7 ltr a super option if you don't have a 3.0 crank already, or if it needs a + sized bearing. Still makes a ton of power. (double check the price in the MID thread, but I think its right. The sleeves completely replace the cylinders so the condition of the walls doesn't matter. It's a great option for a lot of people, as it doesn't cost any more than a stock 2.5.
As far as over sized, the stock 968 (s2) pistons have too much compression, so they won't work for a turbo application. (I guess you could have them machined to match?) You have to source 104mm 968 turbo pistons. They are VERY rare. There are some other custom options, but most go with a sleeved block and JE, or other pistons because it comes out the same or cheaper, and the replacement costs on pistons is much cheaper down the line. They are talking about 100.5mm (oversize) pistons. About six months ago Andial had a set of 104.5 pistons that were suitable, but i was told they are gone. IIRC they were 1800.00.
As far as the squirters, that's a give or take choice. You'll save money with a 2.5,MID setup, over machining the 3.0 (well someone would without access to machine capabilities that you have) or you mate up a head to match the 3.0 in order to utilize the squirters. I rate that as a toss up. For you it may be right to mate the head, since you have the 968 engine already.
The main problem you have concerning rods, is that the 968 wasn't designed for the abuse of a turbo, and the pistons aren't properly dished.. I "believe" that the rods are cast rather than forged, where the 951 rods are forged. However 951 rods would have to be machined becuase of the wrist pins to make the right space for the increased stroke of the 88 mm crank, so you may be better off just buying after market ready to go.
I also think the oil pan is a toss up. Use either one, you can mod them effectively the same way.
You might look into having the crank crossdrilled while you're addressing the oiling issue, but that's clearly an option.
The debate over 2.5 head vs. 2.7 is really one of luck and convenience IMHO. If you can pick up a 2.7 head at a super price, go for it, and match it up. A 2.5 will also be fine. Put a big valve 2.5 head on and you already have the headers mated without drama. The ceramics aren't important,(However you don't want a POS head where the ceramics will break apart and find your turbo!) as you will be pumping so much more exhaust volume, and its heat, that maintaining heat that close to the cylinders isn't great. Either way you'll be pushing .5 more ltr of exhaust through pipes designed for 2.5. Heat and velocity will take care of themselves in the exhaust manifold. That's also why you don't need LR's modification if you don't desire it. It may add a touch, but for how much money?
Lastly the crank. A lot of people swear by the quick spin up of knife edged cranks. I have no opinion. I think it's a trade off. I wonder about the durability on a street car if the goal is 100K miles?
Otherwise you've got the major basics.
Would you be using your current 2.5 motor as the donor for parts like the IC?
11-03-2005, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 951and944S
Jeremy- well, here you are at least addressing the more specific point of the engine assembly itself, what I thought the topic originally was.....
Here again...what difference would it make if you bought a used block and went to first oversized pistons or a used crankshaft that needed a .25-.50 millimeter oversize bearing set when *BOTH* of these procedures are factory authorized and can be accomplished with the used of Porsche parts...?
TS (please don't misinterpret my conciseness as arrogance)
Here again...what difference would it make if you bought a used block and went to first oversized pistons or a used crankshaft that needed a .25-.50 millimeter oversize bearing set when *BOTH* of these procedures are factory authorized and can be accomplished with the used of Porsche parts...?
TS (please don't misinterpret my conciseness as arrogance)
I recenlty spoke with a builder who tried to sell me every coating, JE piston, short-rod, thick headgasket option on the market. Not because it was the right options, but because they just wanted to sell me something. After they told me that quench area was "hog wash" I decided that I would choose someone else to do my machine work for me. All of these options were presented in the essense of cost efficiency. If I had the Sunnen at home I may think differently but most of us dont so it hurts a bit more doing things twice.
11-03-2005, 07:59 PM
#37
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I assisted a friend in such a conversion on a 968 cabriolet 2 years back. Our strict budget was $20k, we blew it by atleast $2-3K and we did ALL the work.
I think people that have actually done it for themseleves know what it really costs. Its not for the faint of heart.
Raj
I think people that have actually done it for themseleves know what it really costs. Its not for the faint of heart.
Raj
11-03-2005, 08:11 PM
#38
Race Car
ehal-
"I didn't include any suspension, brakes etc. pure engine."
I didn't say that you did...someone else did list suspension, brakes etc. as extra cost though while we're supposed to be talking about an engine build.
"968 T pistons are 1500.00 minimum IF you can find them."
First oversize (and I'm taking Jeremy's word that Lindsey is out of 104's) are $1299 while iirc, the Arias coated pistons through TC are $1200 and unless TC has secured a proprietary rights deal with Arias they make custom pistons for individuals upon request. They claim to be aware of the proper coating. I never got a definite figure from them because they wanted me to ship them a 968 piston as a model with my required specs but I've used Arias before on jobs nobody else would touch and was figuring around $200 per piston.
So, have you seeked out every alternative before making your "$1500 minumum claim"...or not...?
"IF you can find them. If not you'll have to source an alternative, which will probably mean sleeving the block. Cha ching there's 3500.00 out the door."
Minus the cost of the pistons that you would otherwise have to buy.
And....btw, Christopher White has posted here his price as $2850, including labnor, sleeves, pistons, pins, and rings so more acurately, subtract *your* estimate of pistons at $1500 from the $2850 instead of $3500.
Without getting into a pi$$ing match with you guys....and staying completely on track ofthe *ENGINE* build as I think the creator of the thread has pretty much clarified by now-
Would you say you can find a 968 block with scored or cracked cylinder walls for 1K...?
Is *that* a fair assumption....? (I've got one for sale if you're looking...)
OK, so send the 1K block to CW, add the $2850.
Are we agreeing so far that a more renewable engine now with steel sleeves and more easily available pistons is not a "scrimp job"...?
Ok, good....
You've got $3850 invested and you're short a crank and a 951 head, bearings and gaskets to have a completed 3.0 liter turbo engine....
Spend the other 10k for me in your list of what else is needed again....
TS
"I didn't include any suspension, brakes etc. pure engine."
I didn't say that you did...someone else did list suspension, brakes etc. as extra cost though while we're supposed to be talking about an engine build.
"968 T pistons are 1500.00 minimum IF you can find them."
First oversize (and I'm taking Jeremy's word that Lindsey is out of 104's) are $1299 while iirc, the Arias coated pistons through TC are $1200 and unless TC has secured a proprietary rights deal with Arias they make custom pistons for individuals upon request. They claim to be aware of the proper coating. I never got a definite figure from them because they wanted me to ship them a 968 piston as a model with my required specs but I've used Arias before on jobs nobody else would touch and was figuring around $200 per piston.
So, have you seeked out every alternative before making your "$1500 minumum claim"...or not...?
"IF you can find them. If not you'll have to source an alternative, which will probably mean sleeving the block. Cha ching there's 3500.00 out the door."
Minus the cost of the pistons that you would otherwise have to buy.
And....btw, Christopher White has posted here his price as $2850, including labnor, sleeves, pistons, pins, and rings so more acurately, subtract *your* estimate of pistons at $1500 from the $2850 instead of $3500.
Without getting into a pi$$ing match with you guys....and staying completely on track ofthe *ENGINE* build as I think the creator of the thread has pretty much clarified by now-
Would you say you can find a 968 block with scored or cracked cylinder walls for 1K...?
Is *that* a fair assumption....? (I've got one for sale if you're looking...)
OK, so send the 1K block to CW, add the $2850.
Are we agreeing so far that a more renewable engine now with steel sleeves and more easily available pistons is not a "scrimp job"...?
Ok, good....
You've got $3850 invested and you're short a crank and a 951 head, bearings and gaskets to have a completed 3.0 liter turbo engine....
Spend the other 10k for me in your list of what else is needed again....
TS
11-03-2005, 08:19 PM
#39
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A 2.7l, 2.8L (stroke or large bore), 3.0l, 3.1L or.. all cost $$$$. A 2.5L rebuild cost plenty as is, then you add to it the extras.. A $15-20K budget is not overly generous. You might be able to do it cheaper, but not by much.
The way I see it, assuming someone is doing the work for you, if you are doing the assembly yourself, take out 30-40% of the cost.
- a good 2.5l short block will cost you on average $6-12K
- Sleeving a block + pistons + rings: $2200-3000
- Head mods for 2.7L or larger add $1000-1500
- A 3L crank $1000-1500 + whatever additional work you opt...
- Engine management + Turbo $3600-4500
A 2.7, 2.8, 3.0 or 3.1L will cost you $4000-7000 more than a 2.5L rebuild.. This is for the basic setup! Add few options and you can reach $10K over the 2.5L...
Let's assume you spend $15-20K on a 3.0L engine, the ONLY way it would live if it was assembled by someone reputable and if it was tuned properly.
For those thinking of going to a larger engine, I recommend you contact someone that has done it before. If you sleeve the engine, Chris White should be on top of your list. (If money is no object, you can add few more names to the list of builders, but it does NOT mean you get any better product than what Chris offers, just more $ to spend).
Now if you want a 3L turbo on the very inexpensive side, and you don't care about 100% efficiency, you can do the followings: Get a 3L 16V short block, replace the rods with 951 rods, bolt a 951 modifed head or a 2.7l head, use a thick head gasket and you have a 3L with low compression that you can turbo. However, this is NOT a good method of doing things, just the least expensive.
I have 5 engines all 3L based that I was planning on building as turbo. I will be building the first one during the winter, I will keep track of the cost and share when done.. I plan on keeping track of machining cost, parts cost and hours of labor..
The way I see it, assuming someone is doing the work for you, if you are doing the assembly yourself, take out 30-40% of the cost.
- a good 2.5l short block will cost you on average $6-12K
- Sleeving a block + pistons + rings: $2200-3000
- Head mods for 2.7L or larger add $1000-1500
- A 3L crank $1000-1500 + whatever additional work you opt...
- Engine management + Turbo $3600-4500
A 2.7, 2.8, 3.0 or 3.1L will cost you $4000-7000 more than a 2.5L rebuild.. This is for the basic setup! Add few options and you can reach $10K over the 2.5L...
Let's assume you spend $15-20K on a 3.0L engine, the ONLY way it would live if it was assembled by someone reputable and if it was tuned properly.
For those thinking of going to a larger engine, I recommend you contact someone that has done it before. If you sleeve the engine, Chris White should be on top of your list. (If money is no object, you can add few more names to the list of builders, but it does NOT mean you get any better product than what Chris offers, just more $ to spend).
Now if you want a 3L turbo on the very inexpensive side, and you don't care about 100% efficiency, you can do the followings: Get a 3L 16V short block, replace the rods with 951 rods, bolt a 951 modifed head or a 2.7l head, use a thick head gasket and you have a 3L with low compression that you can turbo. However, this is NOT a good method of doing things, just the least expensive.
I have 5 engines all 3L based that I was planning on building as turbo. I will be building the first one during the winter, I will keep track of the cost and share when done.. I plan on keeping track of machining cost, parts cost and hours of labor..
11-03-2005, 08:23 PM
#40
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ehall-
"Finally, I don't think any of us thought you were coming of arrogantly. The other guy seemed very much to be. You asked good questions, and we answered"
LOL X 10....
I *am* the other guy....I clearly stated that I accidentally posted under my son's name but at 14yrs old he could time 968 cams by the factory procedure and painted the Coral Red 944S in that avitar himself at age 16, so either way, if it'd been him personally he's had his hand on more Porsches than 90% of the people in here....
I admitted in another post (under my user name) that I *do* come by special parts way more easily than others (PM Perry951 and ask him if I'm legit) but this still doesn't detract credence from my cost estimate early in the thread on components to assemble a 3.0 liter turbo engine.
TS
I'm under the impression that you didn't actually read the posts under 87_944S sig at all now.....
"Finally, I don't think any of us thought you were coming of arrogantly. The other guy seemed very much to be. You asked good questions, and we answered"
LOL X 10....
I *am* the other guy....I clearly stated that I accidentally posted under my son's name but at 14yrs old he could time 968 cams by the factory procedure and painted the Coral Red 944S in that avitar himself at age 16, so either way, if it'd been him personally he's had his hand on more Porsches than 90% of the people in here....
I admitted in another post (under my user name) that I *do* come by special parts way more easily than others (PM Perry951 and ask him if I'm legit) but this still doesn't detract credence from my cost estimate early in the thread on components to assemble a 3.0 liter turbo engine.
TS
I'm under the impression that you didn't actually read the posts under 87_944S sig at all now.....
11-03-2005, 08:32 PM
#42
Race Car
ehall- "This is a fair point, but the factory didn't authorize a 3.0 8 valve turbo. You don't want to cheap this build out."
Agreed but alot of this discussion seems to limit a 3.0 built to each individual's own personal recipe for what they want their engine to be (knife edged crank work, $800 valve job, etc.), at the same time dismissing a defensible cost estimate that is 1/4 the price.
There's more ways to skin this cat is all I'm saying....
Someone even cut down the terms "used block" and "Ebay crank" as if it was a "junkyard" method....
I can only ask then....are not ALL 968/S2 blocks and cranks going to be "used" to some extent in each and everyone's projects here....?
If not....then the only acceptable "non scrimping" 3.0 liter buildup would require 100% factory new parts...
TS
Agreed but alot of this discussion seems to limit a 3.0 built to each individual's own personal recipe for what they want their engine to be (knife edged crank work, $800 valve job, etc.), at the same time dismissing a defensible cost estimate that is 1/4 the price.
There's more ways to skin this cat is all I'm saying....
Someone even cut down the terms "used block" and "Ebay crank" as if it was a "junkyard" method....
I can only ask then....are not ALL 968/S2 blocks and cranks going to be "used" to some extent in each and everyone's projects here....?
If not....then the only acceptable "non scrimping" 3.0 liter buildup would require 100% factory new parts...
TS
11-03-2005, 08:38 PM
#43
Race Car
Jeremy-
Ok, fair enough...but alot of those mods (knife edge) aren't a requirement of a low compression 3.0 liter engine assembly...do we agree...?
Also...staying on focus here, just where did you aquire this "used" block and crank....?
Are you saying that it's possible to find a used stroker crank that *doesn't* need to be machine +1 or 2 over....?
Hmmm, I'd never have guessed it.....
TS
Ok, fair enough...but alot of those mods (knife edge) aren't a requirement of a low compression 3.0 liter engine assembly...do we agree...?
Also...staying on focus here, just where did you aquire this "used" block and crank....?
Are you saying that it's possible to find a used stroker crank that *doesn't* need to be machine +1 or 2 over....?
Hmmm, I'd never have guessed it.....
TS
11-03-2005, 08:47 PM
#44
Race Car
Jeremy-
"All of these options were presented in the essense of cost efficiency. If I had the Sunnen at home I may think differently but most of us dont so it hurts a bit more doing things twice."
Understood...but for any gearhead, wouldn't you find it wise to purchase your own valve grinding machine (you can find 'em for as little as $200, used) instead of paying $800 for headwork....?
Porting...., if you have a junk head to experiment with there are instructions on the net on how to build a budjet flow bench for home use for probably a few hundred worth of material.
"All of these options were presented in the essense of cost efficiency. If I had the Sunnen at home I may think differently but most of us dont so it hurts a bit more doing things twice."
Understood...but for any gearhead, wouldn't you find it wise to purchase your own valve grinding machine (you can find 'em for as little as $200, used) instead of paying $800 for headwork....?
Porting...., if you have a junk head to experiment with there are instructions on the net on how to build a budjet flow bench for home use for probably a few hundred worth of material.
11-03-2005, 08:54 PM
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I wasn't accusing you of anything. Hell the more we all try to find ways to do this, the cheaper it could become for all of us. I'm an ebay fan. Like I said earlier, it's the stinking little stuff, and the shipping, that's so hard to really account for. I agree there are some things that are certainly optional. I throw those in because of the measure twice cut once theory. If they are out there, and a firm price estimate can be set, then a decision can then be made after having all of the options on the table.
As for there being lots of recipes for doing this, I disagree. There are basically two or three.
1.Conventional 3.0 block, match head etc.
2. Conventional sleeving a 3.0 block, match head etc
3. MID sleeve either 2.5 or 3.0 block etc. which now allows the addition of the stock 951 block.
They all have pluses and minuses.
These are always good discussions. They allow a lot of creative thinking to emerge. Sometimes it's just a tough crowd.
As for there being lots of recipes for doing this, I disagree. There are basically two or three.
1.Conventional 3.0 block, match head etc.
2. Conventional sleeving a 3.0 block, match head etc
3. MID sleeve either 2.5 or 3.0 block etc. which now allows the addition of the stock 951 block.
They all have pluses and minuses.
These are always good discussions. They allow a lot of creative thinking to emerge. Sometimes it's just a tough crowd.