Engine Analyzer... library of parts and values
10-01-2005, 02:03 PM
#77
I have just re read this whole thread. Very interesting. Some of the flow numbers are way off. Once deceptive numbers are put out there, what else should we consider could be slanted? Flowing heads at 28" maybe the standard for some, but not those that really know their stuff. If flowing is done a Superflow bench, the benches are calibrated at 25". When using 28" the flow number will be higher. The gross flow numbers should always be ajusted by the conversion factor supplied by Superflow. There's alot to flow testing. Measuring the leakage, making sure the voltages are the same, Temps are the same and more.
Any flow numbers that mean anything should be measured as the Head see the air. Intake manifold, pipes and Intercooler should all be attached. Any Head, whether its the best one out there, will only flow as much as the most restriced part will allow. I guarantee the Intercoolers have huge restrictions. Even the pipes have restriction. All of this when flowed together will give a more realistic flow volume and velocity. Now a better choice of Compression ratio can be selected, Camshaft, Port size, Valve size, Turbo size and boost level, etc etc etc.
Its no wonder some have felt no diffrence or less power with some changes.
Lower the restriction and now everything gets better. Imagine running less MAP to achieve the same air flow, or even a smaller Turbo combo to get the same flow results but now you have better response. Now you open up that head, run a bigger cam, Bigger Valves, bigger Throttle body and just maybe the power ceiling will move upward again.
Any flow numbers that mean anything should be measured as the Head see the air. Intake manifold, pipes and Intercooler should all be attached. Any Head, whether its the best one out there, will only flow as much as the most restriced part will allow. I guarantee the Intercoolers have huge restrictions. Even the pipes have restriction. All of this when flowed together will give a more realistic flow volume and velocity. Now a better choice of Compression ratio can be selected, Camshaft, Port size, Valve size, Turbo size and boost level, etc etc etc.
Its no wonder some have felt no diffrence or less power with some changes.
Lower the restriction and now everything gets better. Imagine running less MAP to achieve the same air flow, or even a smaller Turbo combo to get the same flow results but now you have better response. Now you open up that head, run a bigger cam, Bigger Valves, bigger Throttle body and just maybe the power ceiling will move upward again.
10-01-2005, 05:03 PM
#78
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Thread Starter
Stewardx, if the only contribution you are making to this thread is adding smilies, can you please not do it, it adds no technical contribution to the topic. I was hoping Lindsey Racing could provide information to help the library...
Cant wait for those parts to come on line m42racer...
Cant wait for those parts to come on line m42racer...
10-01-2005, 07:34 PM
#79
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Anyone who have ever handled a flowbench,should know this...you just need a conversion factor to find the flow at 25" instead of at 28". Measure at one pressure,calc it to another. There is no set "calibration pressure" that works better than another pressure. Or,as they say it in the brochure:
Pressure—Most testing with the SF-600S is performed
at 25” (60 cm) of water test pressure. For
smaller valves, the test pressure can be increased to
48” (120 cm) of water. The SF-600S will provide
fast, accurate, repeatable results at any test pressure
between 5” (13 cm) and 48” (120 cm) of water
Pressure—Most testing with the SF-600S is performed
at 25” (60 cm) of water test pressure. For
smaller valves, the test pressure can be increased to
48” (120 cm) of water. The SF-600S will provide
fast, accurate, repeatable results at any test pressure
between 5” (13 cm) and 48” (120 cm) of water
10-01-2005, 08:25 PM
#81
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Thread Starter
I am asking for you to stop posting non technical information on our thread. That does not look like its stopping. If you have information about your products, post them on your own forum. Not interested in your information here anymore I am afraid...
10-02-2005, 01:40 AM
#82
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I have just re read this whole thread. Very interesting. Some of the flow numbers are way off. Once deceptive numbers are put out there, what else should we consider could be slanted? Flowing heads at 28" maybe the standard for some, but not those that really know their stuff"
Interesting.
Interesting.
10-02-2005, 04:29 PM
#83
Pressure—Most testing with the SF-600S is performed
at 25” (60 cm) of water test pressure. For
smaller valves, the test pressure can be increased to
48” (120 cm) of water. The SF-600S will provide
fast, accurate, repeatable results at any test pressure
between 5” (13 cm) and 48” (120 cm) of water
__________________
I totally agree. There are so many ways to get whatever number you want. Getting reapeatable numbers that are represent the flow of the head is another thing.
Flow numbers are like HP numbers. The higher the number the easier the sell. We all want to believe the biggest number. Its human nature.
It seems some flow benches flow at a greater amount than some others. I remember been told of a "stage 3" head that was purchased from a "?" , and it had many faults. It flowed the same as a stock head. In fairness to the vendor, if they contract out this work, then they were the first to get "sold" on the numbers, and the end customer was second in line.
at 25” (60 cm) of water test pressure. For
smaller valves, the test pressure can be increased to
48” (120 cm) of water. The SF-600S will provide
fast, accurate, repeatable results at any test pressure
between 5” (13 cm) and 48” (120 cm) of water
__________________
I totally agree. There are so many ways to get whatever number you want. Getting reapeatable numbers that are represent the flow of the head is another thing.
Flow numbers are like HP numbers. The higher the number the easier the sell. We all want to believe the biggest number. Its human nature.
It seems some flow benches flow at a greater amount than some others. I remember been told of a "stage 3" head that was purchased from a "?" , and it had many faults. It flowed the same as a stock head. In fairness to the vendor, if they contract out this work, then they were the first to get "sold" on the numbers, and the end customer was second in line.
10-02-2005, 07:28 PM
#84
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Originally Posted by m42racer
Flow numbers are like HP numbers. The higher the number the easier the sell. We all want to believe the biggest number. Its human nature.
It seems some flow benches flow at a greater amount than some others.
It seems some flow benches flow at a greater amount than some others.
10-03-2005, 12:07 AM
#85
Yes your correct. All flow benches flow the same or very close. I was using some sarcasm. If you sell it with jacked up numbers, you are stupid. As soon as someone re flows it and the word gets out, who ever will believe anything else you say.
One of your posts suggested that s"" happens. I don't agree. Yes, you can make a mistake when flowing a head, but never when selling one. You make sure by rechecking every one, that it flows as you say it does. Even when heads are rebuilt, and the seats re cut, they should be flowed to ensure the flow has not been compromised. I do understand your point. I just think there is deception here, nothing else. In my earlier post, I suggest the deception could start before the "vendor" even gets the finished head. They just pass along the same "story". Now if they do their own work inhouse, then the buck stops there.
One of your posts suggested that s"" happens. I don't agree. Yes, you can make a mistake when flowing a head, but never when selling one. You make sure by rechecking every one, that it flows as you say it does. Even when heads are rebuilt, and the seats re cut, they should be flowed to ensure the flow has not been compromised. I do understand your point. I just think there is deception here, nothing else. In my earlier post, I suggest the deception could start before the "vendor" even gets the finished head. They just pass along the same "story". Now if they do their own work inhouse, then the buck stops there.
11-18-2005, 08:52 AM
#86
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Lindsey Racing was clearly the brunt of a lot of vendor bashing in this thread, we were challenged to make a reply to the accusations made here. Well for those of you that want to take to time to read it, Lindsey Racing has taken the time to re-test their flow numbers. The results along with a lengthy explanation of how we justify our flow numbers is now posted on our web sight in the cylinder head section. Just a little sneak peak for you, we are not lowering the advertised flow numbers on our cylinder heads, we are actually raising the claim... you'll have to read for yourself.
Here is the link to that web page
http://www.lindseyracing.com/Merchan...de=944CYLHEADS
Mike Lindsey
Lindsey Racing
Here is the link to that web page
http://www.lindseyracing.com/Merchan...de=944CYLHEADS
Mike Lindsey
Lindsey Racing
11-18-2005, 03:10 PM
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No vendor bashing intended,Mike,just posted what I found,like I would for every product I test,using a test pressure of 28",not from calculating it up or down from a 3" pressure or something like that... 
Quote from your link -> Even at 28" of vacuum, there is less air then in the real boosted world. But more is better for the purposes of porting and testing. We feel that even at 28" your only simulating about 2-3 psi of boost. 10" would hardly be 1 pound of boost. <- /quote.
One atmosphere is 403" of water... at 28" you're testing it at 9/10ths the pressure of an atmosphere,barely any "sucking force" at all..the engine itself sees pressure differences varying between 0" and 240".
To test at 3 psi boost you'd need not to suck air in,but blow it in at an absolute pressure of 483.6"...that is 80" over atmospheric conditions.
And,a little quote from Superflow's FAQ page: "As a result, the air gets warmer in the exhaust direction as it goes through the bench. The temperature does not affect the flow reading because the flowbench measures the ratio of the pressure difference across the orifice, to the pressure across the valve. Both the orifice and the head see air at the same temperature, density, and humidity. A flowbench of this design (SF 600 ) provides results, which are independent of the atmospheric conditions. In fact, if you put a cylinder head on the flowbench, and run it at a barometric pressure of 24" of mercury, and run it later at 29" mercury, with the same cylinder head, you will get exactly the same flow numbers. You don’t have to correct for temperature or correct for pressure."
Quote from your link -> Even at 28" of vacuum, there is less air then in the real boosted world. But more is better for the purposes of porting and testing. We feel that even at 28" your only simulating about 2-3 psi of boost. 10" would hardly be 1 pound of boost. <- /quote.
One atmosphere is 403" of water... at 28" you're testing it at 9/10ths the pressure of an atmosphere,barely any "sucking force" at all..the engine itself sees pressure differences varying between 0" and 240".
To test at 3 psi boost you'd need not to suck air in,but blow it in at an absolute pressure of 483.6"...that is 80" over atmospheric conditions.
And,a little quote from Superflow's FAQ page: "As a result, the air gets warmer in the exhaust direction as it goes through the bench. The temperature does not affect the flow reading because the flowbench measures the ratio of the pressure difference across the orifice, to the pressure across the valve. Both the orifice and the head see air at the same temperature, density, and humidity. A flowbench of this design (SF 600 ) provides results, which are independent of the atmospheric conditions. In fact, if you put a cylinder head on the flowbench, and run it at a barometric pressure of 24" of mercury, and run it later at 29" mercury, with the same cylinder head, you will get exactly the same flow numbers. You don’t have to correct for temperature or correct for pressure."
Last edited by Skunk Workz; 11-18-2005 at 03:26 PM.
11-27-2005, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Skunk Workz
And,a little quote from Superflow's FAQ page: "As a result, the air gets warmer in the exhaust direction as it goes through the bench. The temperature does not affect the flow reading because the flowbench measures the ratio of the pressure difference across the orifice, to the pressure across the valve. Both the orifice and the head see air at the same temperature, density, and humidity. A flowbench of this design (SF 600 ) provides results, which are independent of the atmospheric conditions. In fact, if you put a cylinder head on the flowbench, and run it at a barometric pressure of 24" of mercury, and run it later at 29" mercury, with the same cylinder head, you will get exactly the same flow numbers. You don’t have to correct for temperature or correct for pressure."
Mike?
11-27-2005, 11:26 PM
#89
From their web site,
"We have tested heads from Arizona, Southern California and Tennessee. If you have a head you would like flow tested, feel free to send it to us and get the real scoop. No Charge! "
Good advice, just add Oklahoma to the list as well.
Many have and this is the core of this whole thread. Seems barometric and atmospheric conditions in this state really screw with Superflow products?
"We have tested heads from Arizona, Southern California and Tennessee. If you have a head you would like flow tested, feel free to send it to us and get the real scoop. No Charge! "
Good advice, just add Oklahoma to the list as well.
Many have and this is the core of this whole thread. Seems barometric and atmospheric conditions in this state really screw with Superflow products?
