WesM951

lol, michelle

This is some interesting stuff. I knew they collaberated on some stuff (thus reasons of vw/audi symbols on my car), but didn't know it was this extensive.

porkee

924 had an engine block from the VW van Named LT from 78(in europa dont know if they were same in US).As was told here before there is no Porsche with With VW or Audi engine as far as I know.

Regards,
Porkee

RT930turbo

Wasn't the balance shaft technology developed by mitsubishi, then liscensed to porsche for the 944 engine? adds an interesting parallel, and proves how often automakers share/sell technology

AL951

Yes, the 924,924s, 944 and 951 body were made at a Audi plant. The 968, which is a newer and improve 944, was biult at Porsche own plant. Also most transmssions were biult by Audi. Nonetheless, the 944 in all its forms was a true Porsche and made the family proud.

AL951

The balance shaft technology was patented by someone else, but Mitsubishi bough the rights to this technology. So any car maker that wants to use it, has to permission from Mitsubishi and pay them royalties.

M758

Well this not entirly correct.

Auto Union came to be in the 30's. It was coming together of 4 German auto mfg's. Horst, DKW, and I forget the other two. I don't think '"Audi" exisited back then. The 4 rings represent each of the 4 Mfg's.

Anyway VW certainly did not exist at the time. Ferdinand Porsche did work for Auto Union and Diamler Benz (Possibly before Mercedes & Benz merged) Anyway in the mid 30s' he came to work for Auto Union and designed the V16 Grand Prix cars. At the same time Hitler wanted a "Peoples Car" and came up with a set of specs for it. Porsche came up with a simple 4 place car to meet those. This was to be put into production as the KDFWagen, or "stength through joy" car. The name meant something funky like that. Anyway VW did not exits as a company at that time with the VW name. I believe the car was to be state produced, but I am not sure.

Anyway war came so production of KDFWagan was very small, but the design was converted to the kuebelwagen Military scout car.

Now fast forward to 1946. Germany was in ruins and the Allies needed transportation around the county. The British were the ones the primarily interested in full scale production of Hitler's "peoplescar". Reasons were that they figured the German people needed something to do and it would help transportation growth. So with capital from the British Volkswagen motor company was started from the ashes of the old factory KDF factory.

By this time Ferdinand Porsche was in a French Prison for his efforts in producing designs for the Tiger tank and other militay items. Ferry Porsche was in Austria working to get him out and working on a sports car using commonly availble parts. At this time the most common parts were VW parts. So he naturally built Porsche #1 out of VW parts and also I assume since Porsche Engineering (Porsche Engineering started before the war by Ferdinand and Porsche Cars after the war by Ferry) had plans for the VW and had even worked on a long range racing version in the 1938 of which a couple were built. So it was a natural place to start. So Porsche cars was started in 1948.

Now I am not sure exactly what happend to Auto Uninon other than Audi seems to have evolved from it. Part of that may have been because parts of Audi Union were on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain. Anyway at some point in history VW got togther with Audi.

Now in the US market few foregin cars were availble. Max Hoffman was really one of the leadars in bringing German and other european cars to the US in the 50's. Over time he and some guy on the west coast who's name escapes me were the primary importers.

Well over the years Porsche and VW maintained links due to the similarity of VW to the 356. This link brought about the 914 as a proper collaboration between VW and Porsche.

Some time in late 60's Porsche and VW decided the US market to be strong enough that it needed a direct marketing link to its North American dealers. So it stopped importing through Hoffman. VW North America was generated as well as Marketing Agreement between Audi and Porsche which created the Porsche+Audi logo seen on racers of the 70's and combined Porsche+Audi dealers.

In general the 914 production relationship was tough as while VW built the 914-4s completly, Porsche was to finish the 914-6's. Porsche had to buy the 914 shells from VW and this is one factor that lead to the higher than planned cost of the 914-6 and subsequent low production volume. By the time the 914-6 was cancelled it be came clear that Porsche needed a new entry level car.

Now while this was occuring development of the what was to be come the 924 started. As stated elsewhere this was to a VW (may be Audi badged) product with designed by Porsche under contract. The VW managment srapped this car after Porsche completed a significant level of design work. At this time Porsche realied it needed an entry level car to replace the 914 and naturally the looked right at their VW project. They bought this deisgn back and worked hard to make this VW project into a Porsche. Certainly there were alot of constraints on design changes. At the same time development of 928 was underway limited money and the end to the 914 was rapidly approaching limiting development time.

So Porsche decided to make the chages it could make in short time frame and keep the Audi derived engine and transmission. In fact the 924 design was late to market as evidenced by the 912E. The 912E was in fact a stop gap measure since 914 production ended in 1975 and the 924 would not be ready until 1977. So a 911 body shell was fitted with the 914-4 2.0L motor as the entry level car for 1976.

By 1977 the 924 was out and a modfication/evolution program began. You see this if you follow how many changes were made to the 924 from 1977 to 1980. The power out was small even by the day's standard. A stop gap to this was the 924 Turbo. It made sense since the 911 just got a power boost by means of Turbo in 1976 so whay not use that technology on the 924 to buld the 931.

It soon became clear that motor was major weak spot in the 924 model line. The turbo helped as did the racing effort comeing from the Carrera GT, GTS and 924 DP, programs. It was however not enough to address slow sales.

So Porsche embarked on a plan to replace the Audi derived engine with one of Porsche design. An air cooled flat six or four was overlooked probably because Porsche saw a limited future for such motor due to tightening emissions and fuel mileage standards. The 928 and it V8 were designed under the assumption that the 911's air cooled flat six's days were numbered.

As state elsewhere Porsche considered 4 and 6 cyl motors. In the end for reasons packaging, marketing, production costs, and certain development time opted for a 4 cylinder based on the 928 engine architecture. The balance shafts were key element to the motor as a complaint of the Audi based motor was that it was too rough. To speed development time a system mitsubishi develop was used and roylaties paid.

So Porsche designed and built a 2.5L inline four. Power output approached that of the 924 Turbo with less cost and better reliablity. Visiual cues were taken from the Carrera GT to further seperate it from its VW hertitage. I believe the 924 Turbo was dropped for all markets, but the 924 remained in production for ROW use until it was replaced by the 924S in 1986. The 944 when first introduced was praised for its engine and balance.

By 1985 Porsche had been working on a more powerfull 944 model and the 944 Turbo came to the production line. At the same time the 944 model recieved many of detail upgrades and the new interior from the 944 Turbo. Probably for marketing reasons, may be due to time needed to test the Turbo motor, the 944 was updated in mid year 1985 with many of these changes and the turbo relased as an 1986 model.

Along the way more and more VW or Audi parts were being replaced by Porsche specific parts. The benefit was greater refinement, but at price of high part cost resulting in a more expensive car.

All the while this was occuring the Porsche+Audi North American Marketing plan was dissolving. By the early 80's Porsche created Porsche Cars North America as it's own North American marketing company and importer.

The VW Audi group on the other hand soon transitioned to leadership from a most odd location. Ferdinand Piech(Ferry's Nephew and father of the 906, 908, 917) became involved with VW/Audi at some point after the Porsche family relinquished day to day contol of the company in the late 70's. Interestingly by the late 90's Piech was the head VW/Audi group when Porsche began to look for a partner for its SUV project. Porsche talked to Mercedes, but Mercedes rejected its offer. In time however VW joined again with their old partner for the Cayenne/Toureg project.

So the History of Porsche, VW and Audi is long, close, and a bit strange as compared to most American companies. Never the less although they have shared much and still do they are and always have been seperate companies.

tammons

The way I understand it is that the 924 was commissined by VW to be designed by porshe and they rejected it so porsche picked it up as a porsche model.

As far as I know the 924 does have a Vw motor in it and a lot of other Vw parts.

hosrom_951

Weren't the balance shafts actually invented by some engineer in the UK first? before Mitsu got the rights (or whatever)?

Waterguy

"Porsche 924, 944 and 968 History

The Porsche 944 owes it's heritage to a contract held by Porsche in the early 1970's to fully develop a new Audi sports coupe (model 477) for Volkswagon-Audi to replace the jointly marketed VW-Porsche 914. Porsche's design team was headed by Tony Lapine, whist the 924's design was by Harm Lagaay. Upon completion of the contract (code-named EA425), VW-Audi (VAG) found itself in financial trouble and decided to shelve the project. Porsche saw the potential of the "almost ready to market" EA425 to broaden their model base and market appeal, negotiated with Audi and bought out the rights to build and release the 4-cylinder front-engined water-cooled model as the Porsche 924. Porsche started development on EA425 after their own 928 project was already past the concept stage. Therefore, it made sense for the EA425 to share common design concepts, although, WV-Audi had briefed Porsche to incorporate as many VAG parts as possible. The 924 was effectively a scaled-down, lower-cost version of the 928 concept.

The most outstanding technical feature of the new Porsche 924 (and 928) was the placement of the transmission which was attached at the differential directly before the rear axle. This "transaxle" arrangement was used for better weight distribution and achieved a near 50/50 front/rear ratio. The transaxle was 1st used in 1951 by Lancia and later re-discovered by Ferrari and used by Alfa Romeo in the Alfetta. However, Porsche engineers refined the transaxle arrangement by locating the clutch directly behind the engine and connecting the drive shaft thru a "torque-tube" to the rear transaxle.

924

In 1976, the first Porsche 924's were assembled under contract by Audi at their Neckarsulm plant (50km from Porsche's Zuffenhausen plant) using many VW-Audi components. The engine was an Audi 2.0 litre unit, based on the engine used in the then current Audi 100 and VW LT31 van and was also sold to GMC for their Gremlin. For use in the 924, the engine was fitted with Bosch's K-jetronic fuel injection system. The gearbox was made by VW's Kassel plant. Many other suspension, steering, instrumentation, switchgear and trim components were shared with the VW Golf/Rabbit and Beetle.

The Porsche 924 was immediately applauded for it's good looks and excellent handing due to it's near 50/50 front/rear weight distribution achieved by it's front-engine, rear transaxle gearbox platform. But the 924 was not always regarded as a true Porsche due to it's VW-Audi heritage. Over the years, Porsche improved the popular 924 and released the more powerful 924 Turbo."

© Copyright 2001, 2002 dr_scott@optusnet.com.au

What M758 said. Quick quiz: what is the Porsche 937? 939?

slim_boy_fat

In its last year of production the 944S2 and 944turbo were build in Porsche's Zuffenhausen plant, not by Audi.

M758

I also think the 968 Gearbox was an Porsche or Getrag design vs Audi unit. I know the 968 gearbox shares parts with the 911 G50 gearbox. I remember hearing Chris Cervelli putting 911 G50 LSDs into 968 gearboxes. This does not work for the Audi ones.

Also a few 924 Turbo came with Porsche gearboxes. These are called "snail shells" due to their appearance. Few were made and I believe their cost kept them out of 944.

Interestingly its rumored that the 968 is better built that the 944. I wonder if it true or just talk due to where production moved to for the 968.

lart951

To most of the 928/993/996/GT3/GT2 & GT Carrera owners I drive an Audi. Is not only the VW crowd.

M758

930 = 911 Turbo
931 = 924 Turbo
933 = 924 D production race car?
934 = Group 4 930 racing variant
935 = Group 5 big HP 930 racing variant
936 = Protoype car - Le Mans Winner
937 = Carrera GT
939 = Carrera GTS

Hmm I dont think the Carrera GTP (944 motor car) got a number, but I could be wrong.
951 = 944 Turbo

Waterguy

Joe, you're no fun to play with. Too easy for you. I think you are correct on the 933, btw. My info says " a limited edition 924-based car developed for racing by the SCCA", so I assume that would be D production.

M758

Ha sounds just like my wife when I she tries to quiz me on something.



Yep D production is the SCCA class the 924 "special edition" was built for.

Now the really tough question...

what happend to the 932 and 938?