Notices
944 Turbo and Turbo-S Forum 1982-1991
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by: Clore Automotive

Engine assembly questions

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 05-03-2005, 01:12 PM
  #46  
dand86951
Burning Brakes
 
dand86951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Another assembly tip. Make sure the bearing girdle front face is flush with the block front face where the oil pump will bolt on. Keep in mind that it was lined up when you took it apart so it has to be perfectly flush when it goes back together. Sometimes it will move during torque of the bolts. If it does you won't get a good seal on the oil pump. Check it and double check it before you put the oil pump on.
Old 05-04-2005, 04:17 AM
  #47  
Zero10
Race Car
Thread Starter
 
Zero10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 4,593
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Okie dokie, been a while since I did an update
Family problems have led to me frequenting the boards a little less right now, and I'll be heading out of town this weekend, hopefully driving the 951.

The clear seal on the oil pickup tube?.... Need some clarification

Okay, so the crank girdle is correctly torqued, used loctite 518 instead of 574, which is a gel instead of a liquid, but it bonds stronger. Used it on the oil pump as well. Spent about 30 minutes cleaning the oil pump prior to installation. Had a bit of a tough time getting it installed, turned out I mixed up the water pump hardware with the oil pump hardware, once I had the correct length bolts, it worked much better.

The oil cooler was installed today. Balance shaft bearings were ordered. Tons of parts were cleaned, and I'm getting ready to put the cam on tomorrow.

The surface at both the front and rear of the blocks are out half of a hair, I can just barely catch my finger nail on the lip, so I pushed it back so the rear is perfectly smooth. According to the loctite website, loctite 518 will seal gaps up to 0.25mm if allowed proper drying time, and by lining up feeler gauges on the edge, I figure the mis-alignment is around 0.08 - 0.10mm, so it should be just fine. If it leaks.... well, I'll pull my freakin hair out, lol.

Feeling pretty good about it right now, which is always a bad sign. Putting in a full day on it tomorrow, hoping to get it really happening. Would like to see the upper balance shaft installed, cover installed and sealed, intake on, turbo on, vacuum and boost lines run, and most of the wiring installed.
My second set of balance shaft bearings will show up thursday, and once they're on, I can install the exhaust.

Looking for advice on the oil pan, particularily which sealant to use with the gasket. The factory manual says none, but it seems most people on here agree on elephant snot, whatever that is

When I said as close as my torque wrench will get me, it's close enough to do the job, I'm just not sure it's 100% accurate. I can't imagine it's out more than 5%, and it seems all of the torque specs have about a 10% tolerance. I just like to make fun of it.

I'm really stumped on one nut, but I'm going to do some digging before I start asking questions.
Old 05-04-2005, 10:50 AM
  #48  
AlexE
Pro
 
AlexE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Zero10
Okie dokie, been a while since I did an update
Family problems have led to me frequenting the boards a little less right now, and I'll be heading out of town this weekend, hopefully driving the 951.

The clear seal on the oil pickup tube?.... Need some clarification

Okay, so the crank girdle is correctly torqued, used loctite 518 instead of 574, which is a gel instead of a liquid, but it bonds stronger. Used it on the oil pump as well. Spent about 30 minutes cleaning the oil pump prior to installation. Had a bit of a tough time getting it installed, turned out I mixed up the water pump hardware with the oil pump hardware, once I had the correct length bolts, it worked much better.

The oil cooler was installed today. Balance shaft bearings were ordered. Tons of parts were cleaned, and I'm getting ready to put the cam on tomorrow.

The surface at both the front and rear of the blocks are out half of a hair, I can just barely catch my finger nail on the lip, so I pushed it back so the rear is perfectly smooth. According to the loctite website, loctite 518 will seal gaps up to 0.25mm if allowed proper drying time, and by lining up feeler gauges on the edge, I figure the mis-alignment is around 0.08 - 0.10mm, so it should be just fine. If it leaks.... well, I'll pull my freakin hair out, lol.

Feeling pretty good about it right now, which is always a bad sign. Putting in a full day on it tomorrow, hoping to get it really happening. Would like to see the upper balance shaft installed, cover installed and sealed, intake on, turbo on, vacuum and boost lines run, and most of the wiring installed.
My second set of balance shaft bearings will show up thursday, and once they're on, I can install the exhaust.

Looking for advice on the oil pan, particularily which sealant to use with the gasket. The factory manual says none, but it seems most people on here agree on elephant snot, whatever that is

When I said as close as my torque wrench will get me, it's close enough to do the job, I'm just not sure it's 100% accurate. I can't imagine it's out more than 5%, and it seems all of the torque specs have about a 10% tolerance. I just like to make fun of it.

I'm really stumped on one nut, but I'm going to do some digging before I start asking questions.

Pull that crank girdle apart. Place the lower half in the freezer it will shring enough. THen align the oil pump face and torque it up again. I hope 518 is an anaerobic sealant. It will also stay liquid in oil so it has specific properties.

The oil pan gasket should go on dry.......but you are right its hit an miss. There is next to no torque on those lower bolts........so an accurate torque wrench is a must and follow the sequence.
Old 05-04-2005, 11:20 AM
  #49  
cruise98
Three Wheelin'
 
cruise98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 1,576
Received 22 Likes on 11 Posts
Default

The oil pump pickup tube seal is a clear one in the Victor Reinz kits. The seal fits around the pickup where it slides into the girdle.

I will third the comment about getting the block face flush. I have never seen any play at all, and usually have to beat it and oil stone it flush. The freezer idea works too, but the condensation that forms bothers me. Of course, we have plenty of humidity around here, so it may not be a problem for you.

Use the orange loctite. I tried a substitute, and it was a absolute failure and I found globs of it in the oil filter. My opinion on the oil pan gasket...if it is factory put it on dry, aftermarket, seal it with something, but not anything with silicone. Permatex gasket maker for rubber gaskets works, and Danno's 3M weather stripping adhesive elephant snot is another some have used.

Alex - do you install the bearings before you freeze the girdle? the oil stone method is messy and very time consuming.
Old 05-04-2005, 12:37 PM
  #50  
Mike B
Done With Sidepatch
Rennlist Member
 
Mike B's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,846
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

Ditto what Alex and Keith say. These are things you can't rush.

You need the cradle and the block to be PERFECTLY flat and smooth for the oil pump. Loctite 574 will fill gaps up to about .1 mm but it's easy to get it flat.

I would pull the cradle and put it in the frezzer overnight. In the morning coat it as needed with loctite 574 and get it into place. As it expands you'll be able to tighten the thing down so that there's no gap...or, do as Porsche says, and take an oil-stone to it to flatten it out. The frezzer way is the way to go...it worked perfectly for me and others.

Not sure about loctite 518 but there is a reason Porsche states 574 in the manual. Good luck Chris and don't be in a hurry. You gots lots of time.
Old 05-04-2005, 06:42 PM
  #51  
Zero10
Race Car
Thread Starter
 
Zero10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 4,593
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

The reason Porsche states 574 in the manual, is because it is a liquid sealant, so it's far easier to apply. 518 is a gel sealant, and is harder to work with. Other than that, their (dried) properties are virtually identical. Both are anaerobic sealants. I talked with 2 loctite guys, and both assured me that it should function perfectly in this application. It even strengthens with exposure to oil (once cured, if not cured, it is washed away), so they both seem to think it's even better for this application. It is a victor reinz oil pan gasket, so who knows?.... Looks and feels exactly like the factory one, so I will put it on dry.

Clear seal on the oil pickup tube... never saw one taking it apart. There was a big thick orange O-ring (Well, more of a rectangle ring) around it where it inserts into the girdle, to which I found a match in my kit, and replaced. Never saw a clear one, now I'm worried. I will leave the oil pan off until I get this figured out. Unless you mean on the return tube, can't recall if there was a seal on that one, but I didn't see space for one.

Now, as far as the crank girdle goes, I wish it was as simple as it has been for everybody else. In my case, the girdle is slightly shorter than the block. I have no idea if it was flush before, as this isn't my block (the machine shop butchered mine, and gave me somebody else's), however I can guarantee you it isn't flush now, and can't be made so. That is, unless there is some way to stretch it without damaging it.

Wait.... just had an idea on the oil pump seal.... *smack* I bet it's the clear one that looks just like the black one that goes in the oil cooler......
I'll be changing that.
I figured maybe it was for the N/A oil coolers or something. You guys just saved me a huge mistake.

As far as an accurate torque wrench goes, for everything under 20lb/ft, I have a very accurate set of torque wrenches (well, I don't HAVE them, but I have access to them), and you can rest assured they will be used on the oil pan, and everything else with very low torque specs. However, my over-20-lb/ft torque wrench is a cheaper one, since it gets used by many others.

I'm feeling a bit of a pinch for time, but I think I can do it without rushing things. I am going to saskatchewan this friday for a funeral, and I would really like to take the 951 out there, get some break-in miles on it, so I can start racing it sooner. This means I have to get the thing running on thursday night, so I can spend thursday night/friday morning driving, to get the first oil change in before I leave on the trip.

That said, time for some break-in questions (probably getting a little ahead of myself here).

The general consensus seems to be, fill it with 30W non-detergent oil, drive 500km's, then change the oil. Try to vary engine speed as much as is reasonable, and don't top 3000rpm for the first 500km. After this, increase max engine speed by 1000rpm every 500km's, until your max engine speed is 6000rpm, then start to introduce boost. Keep it low at first, but after 3000 or 4000km's, should be good to go as hard as I want.
For the entire break-in I will most likely use Castrol conventional oil, after this, it will have nothing but Amsoil and Mobil 1. Does this procedure sound reasonable, or is there something I should change?
Old 05-04-2005, 07:00 PM
  #52  
cruise98
Three Wheelin'
 
cruise98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 1,576
Received 22 Likes on 11 Posts
Default

Are the block and girdle from the same engine? They are not interchangeable unless some machining is done.

The clear seal is prone to melting. The factory one is much better. I have heard some are orange, but the only ones I have seen are black.
Old 05-04-2005, 09:24 PM
  #53  
dand86951
Burning Brakes
 
dand86951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Re break in procedure, you should get some suggestions from your ring and piston supplier.
Old 05-05-2005, 12:16 PM
  #54  
Zero10
Race Car
Thread Starter
 
Zero10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 4,593
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Ski (the ring and piston supplier) advised me that this procedure sounds pretty good. It sounds like nobody has any big objections to it, so that's how I'll do it

As for the oil changes on it, things are going to be slightly different, hopefully it won't be a big deal. I'm trying to get the car going for a road trip I have to take on friday night, to saskatchewan. So, if I get it running tonight/tomorrow morning I'm going to take it out on the highway for as long as is feasible, probably only about 300 km's, then change the oil, fill it and drive out to saskatchewan and back, change it then. This will make the second oil change at roughly 2500-3000km's. After this, I will use normal oil change intervals, filling it once more with conventional, then going to synthetics.

At present, I'm having some trouble locating balance shaft bearings, but I think I've got it sorted out. I am hoping to have the engine assembled and in the car tonight. We'll see. It's 9:10AM right now, I'm planning not to quit until it's done (or until the neighbors come over and turn off our generator because it's keeping them awake! )
Old 05-05-2005, 08:52 PM
  #55  
azmi951
Drifting
 
azmi951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Tucson AZ, Dallas Tx sometimes
Posts: 2,966
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Paragon has the bearings for the ballance shaft.
Old 05-09-2005, 02:51 AM
  #56  
Zero10
Race Car
Thread Starter
 
Zero10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 4,593
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Yeah, but I'm antsy. I managed to pick some up locally for a half-decent (not!) price.

Well, I guess it's update time. I've been very short on sleep lately, but it's almost together.
Every job has taken more than 3 times longer than it should have. It's STILL not running, but it's getting close. I have a list about as long as my arm, but it's broken down to every step along the way, so really, it's not that bad.
Just need to install the entire cooling system, splice some wires on a speed/referece sensor, finish my battery wiring, re-install the DME/KLR, fill with oil and antifreeze, reconnect the steering shaft, finish fixing the power steering line, and align the steering wheel, and it should be good to go. It's been an insane past few days, and I've never been so sore in my life. My arms are badly beaten from trying to get that damn engine to slide onto the torque tube, it got a few good bites out of me because of all those wiring brackets and clips.

So, to recap the entire project.....
Started off estimating about 3-4 weeks of work, and a parts bill of $2500. So, I applied the common rule of engine rebuilds, take your estimated price, double it, and that's what it will cost. So, I'm expecting about $5000 to do this rebuild.
All in all, it took about 3 weeks of work, spread out over more than 2 months, and so far I'm in about $4750. Not doing too badly from the original estimate. All the little things were 10x harder than I thought they would be, and all the big things were 10x easier than I thought they would be, kind of strange.
Now, the damn thing just has to run, and it will make my day. We'll see if I can get it going tomorrow, I'm really itching to drive it. Thanks for all of the advice I've gotten on here, it truly has been very helpful.
Old 05-09-2005, 03:06 AM
  #57  
Redlyne_mr2
Racer
 
Redlyne_mr2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Alberta
Posts: 493
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Hey Chris, I tried calling your cell all weekend but it was off. Wanted to know if you needed a hand. Lol you must have had it on concentration mode. Im hoping the NA job wont be such a challenge.
Old 05-09-2005, 07:23 PM
  #58  
Zero10
Race Car
Thread Starter
 
Zero10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 4,593
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

My cell died on thursday, I lost my charger 2 weeks ago (it's a loaner phone, so none of my accessories work on it), so I've been using my dad's charger which just happens to fit my phone, however I haven't been home since last monday, so it finally died on thursday. Of course, I had your number saved on my other cell (which is out for repairs AGAIN), so I can't get it from there and call you, and I only have my G/F's cell, the number to which I shouldn't give out. I'll try to give you a shout tonight, but I think I'm heading out of town very shortly.

I was really hoping to fire it up and take it out tonight, it's about 95-97% done (considering the entire project), but I have to make an unexpected trip out of town shortly, so I have to quit for the night

Pretty short list of what's left:
Oil pressure sending unit wiring (just needs to be connected)
DME/KLR installed and mounted
Boost gauge connected (A-Pillar already installed, lines already run)
Rear speakers installed (trim is all apart, have speakers, just needs to be assembled)
Intake (from the manifold out) needs to be installed
Cooling system needs to be filled
Oil is filled, but I'm going to be about 1/2 L shy of the full mark, probably not a big deal for the 500km first oil change.
Starter needs to be installed
Clutch slave needs to be bolted in
Motor mount heat shields need to be installed
Starter heat shield needs to be installed
Some other miscellaneous heat shield needs to have it's location determined, and be installed.
Wastegate and small pipe after wastegate need to be installed

Then it needs to be driven
I figure between 2 and 3 hours remaining on it. Considering the list of things when I started this morning was about 60 things long, this is a pretty short list.
I can't sleep anymore, and I'm bleeding from many places, this car has gotten the better of me, I can't wait for it to run!!!

I made numerous 'modifications' throughout the install, such as much larger wiring, and replacing dozens of vacuum lines/hoses, hopefully it will run better than ever.

Upon closer inspection of all of the bits and pieces I have left, it would appear some previous work has been done on this car. The wastegate appears to have been shimmed (there are about 7 or 8 little metal shims bolted in there, I presume a stock wastegate would have none?), and there is definately a restrictor in the banjo bolt from the intercooler pipe. I'm hoping it will make a bit more power than stock, and be a blast to drive.
Old 05-09-2005, 07:33 PM
  #59  
azmi951
Drifting
 
azmi951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Tucson AZ, Dallas Tx sometimes
Posts: 2,966
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

for some strange reason I cant wait to go through the same thing as you.
Old 05-11-2005, 11:53 PM
  #60  
Zero10
Race Car
Thread Starter
 
Zero10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 4,593
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Hahaha, I couldn't wait to start the project, now I just wish it was over!!
I ran all new vacuum lines and T's, and I accidentally pulled one off, and I have no idea where it went!!!
It's driving me insane. I think I'm just going to plug the manifold side of it, and see if anything bad happens.

I have a to-do list about a page long right now, I always forget about the little things, like installing the steering wheel, boost gauge, camber plates, etc.


Quick Reply: Engine assembly questions



All times are GMT -3. The time now is 11:32 PM.