azmi951

Thank you Chris for working on that book!!!

Zero10

The bearings say 'std' on the back of them, so I don't think that's it.
As I tighten each rod down, the crank gets progressively harder to turn, it's not 1, it's all 4 equally.

The crank turns wonderfully without rods attached. Keep in mind it has assembly lube instead of engine oil on it, so it's a touch sluggy, but it's very smooth, and you can turn it with 1 finger.
I'm going to go over it with a fine tooth comb tomorrow, and if I'm still running into troubles, I'll PM you Mike. I hate to keep asking for favors

I will file the corner on the rings. I was worried about that as well, but the ones that came off had a VERY sharp corner there. It gave me a good gash on one finger, so I didn't think anything of it when I saw how sharp these ones were.

Just for s***s and giggles, I'll fit a 100.00mm ring in the hole, if I get the same end gap, we know what's up
I expect these are the correct rings though, I doubt that Ski would ship out the wrong rings, he's a pretty bright guy.

So, slightly larger end gap isn't a big problem? I was worried it would have an adverse effect on the compression, but in my head, I just can't see it changing it by more than 1-2psi. If you guys don't think it's a big deal, then I'll now remove any worries about it from my head.

Allow me to be certain that I'm not about to do something stupid.
Here's my list for tomorrow;
Unbolt all 4 rods, remove pistons from bores.
Check alignment of pistons, chamfer the corners of the rings, align all rods correctly, re-install pistons in bores, then rod caps on, checking the alignment on them.

I would like to make absolutely certain all of the details are correct, since I hate doing the same job 5 times
Which way should the raised numbering on the rods be facing? Front or back?
The writing on the side of the rod should be towards the driver's side, correct? (the numbers)
If these pistons are indeed asymmetrical, in what orientation should they be installed?
My old pistons are VERY dirty, so if nobody knows, I could clean them up, but it's probably faster to wait for somebody here that knows, lol.
I'll install the rods and pistons one at a time, give it a few spins with each one on there. Maybe they'll free up after a turn or two. I have lots of assembly lube on the cylinder walls, so it should be harmless to turn it over a couple times.

I recall turning the engine over prior to the rebuild, with the head off. I could turn the crank with my hands (by the counterweights), quite easily, but it had issues too, so I wasn't certain if that was correct or not, but it sure turned over fast with the starter motor, lol.

I would love to get this car together soon, but I have secured a replacement daily driver (hopefully), so I can afford to take my time, it's only my anxiety to drive this car that is rushing me now.

Thanks again for all the help.

Chris, I don't see it at all as picking on me, no worries, I'm pretty tough to offend as long as it's all constructive.

Chris White

Its more important to make sure that the pistons are in the correct orientation than the rods. The stock and most aftermarket pistons have the bowl offset slightly so that the ‘squish’ (quench) design of the combustion chamber works correctly. The side of the piston that has more flat area needs to match up with the flat area in the combustion chamber.

Align the pistons and don’t worry about which way the rods are facing (you don’t want to remove the C clips on the wrist pins to change the rod/piston relationship).

Don’t sweat the ring gap – there won’t be a functional difference when the engine is running.

IMPORTANT – No assembly lube on the cylinder walls!! You want to use a very light oil – like WD40. If there is too much lubrication the rings will not seat. The process of seating the rings is when the rings conform to the cylinders by establishing a matching wear pattern – too much lube and they won’t wear. If they don’t seat in the first couple of hours then the walls may glaze and then they never seat and seal correctly.

Good luck!

Chris White

Zero10

Okay, I'll wipe it all off, and clean the walls. I put it on there because I knew they were going in and out a few times, so while I'm getting everything together, I didn't want to mark up the walls, or scratch them.
Once I get everything assembled correctly, I'll clean them up, and keep going

Thanks for the info on the piston alignment.

cruise98

Finally got Rennlist to let me upload a photo. This picture shows the narrow side of the dish on the intake or driver's side of the cylinder. The rods appear to be symmetrical. Hope this helps.

http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/piston_and_rod.jpg

Zero10

After cleaning up my old pistons, the arrow on them confirms how I thought the pistons should be installed (once I learned they are asymmetrical).

I just had a thought, perhaps there has been a mis-communication here.
I have been saying, should the reliefs be on the same side, or opposide sides of the crank (on the rod bearings). What I should have been saying, is should they be on opposite sides of the crank, and on the same side (front-back) (numbers mis-aligned), or should they be on the same side of the crank, and opposite sides (front-back) (numbers aligned). Just occured to me that there are 2 ways what I said could be taken, and perhaps I'm thinking the wrong way.
I am 100% confident my pistons are in correctly, so I have installed the head. I'm cleaning the oil cooler and water and oil pumps today, and installing them on the block.
I removed all assembly lube from the cylinder walls, and used a bit of wd-40 just so they aren't dry. I put a small radius on the sharp corners of the rings, then re-installed the pistons. Re-torqued the rod nuts to 55lb-ft, and it still won't turn. So, I'm going to try reversing the rod caps and see if it turns like this.

cruise98

The numbers on the caps should be the same number that is on the rod, and they should be next to each other and visible when you have the caps bolted on. The tangs or reliefs will be on the same side of the journal.

If the crank is not turning, there is a problem.

Zero10

Hahahaha, okay, that explains something.
I was talking about them being on opposite sides of the journal, instead of being opposite sides front-back, lol.
I'll fix that, and I'll bet the engine will turn now!

The numbers match on all the rods, I'm very careful with things like that, but I was most puzzled when this issue came up. I thought I was taking everybody's advice, I guess not!

Hopefully this will solve the problem, as I'm anxious to get it running.
I finally have a replacement car (a 98 grand am), so I'm good to drive around until this runs, but I was sitting in it yesterday, and now I'm hooked again....

Zero10

LOL, I was just at the garage a couple hours ago, I turned the rod caps around, and guess what, the crank turns with 2 fingers. Just for comparison, before I needed well over 200lb/ft to make the engine turn. This time, I set my torque wrench to 10lb/ft (which I doubt is accurate), and it only clicked when all 4 pistons were right in the middle of their travel, and just barely. A rather pronounced difference.

I have the lifters soaking in oil, and am heading out to clean up the cam tower before installation (hopefully tomorrow!!) Also taking about 20 other filthy parts to the car wash.... they will hate me soon!

Rather excited at this point!!

Crazy Eddie

I am not meaning to pick on somebody for trying…..but see if you can get somebody to look over your shoulder that has some experience. There are a lot of little things that can add up to a short lived engine. For example – when you gapped the rings did you chamfer the sharp edge?

Chris White

No but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night !!!

Sorry but I just couldn't resist
Zero you have a lot more ***** than I ever will
Chris you define the word Diplomat .....
regards
Ed

Zero10

Oh dear... lol.

Well, installing the rod caps incorrectly won't allow your engine to turn, but in the time it takes to fix it, you could save 15% or more on your car insurance....

More *****, or less brains... depends who you ask
So far, what I've learned is pay attention to detail, and that things are (in a fundamental sense) very simple for this job, it's just all the little things that can really add up to make this difficult.

Chris White

Too much dung being flung elsewhere on the list!
It looks like ‘Zero’ is on the right track now. I have to admit that it seems weird to have both bearing tangs on the same side of the rod. Not normal for other makes.

I was feeling a little like Zero this weekend – my street car has been seeping a little oil since a rebuilt at the end of last summer. I hate leakers…

So I took it apart, replace all the bearings (yes, you can replace crank bearings with the engine in the car!), and found the issue – the brand new rear main seal was missing the internal spring tensioner! So now I have to put the engine back together and then pull the trans, torque tube, bell housing, pressure plate, clutch and fly wheel…

Chris White

cruise98

Good job zero. Communication is hard sometimes. Opposite sides of the same side!

A few tips for the rest of the process...

Before you bolt the oil pump to the block, clean both surfaces with preps-all, laquer thinner, or contact cleaner. It must be absolutely sanitary or the loctite will not seal and you will have a severe leak. Ask me how I know this! I thought mineral spirits was good enough, but it is not. I hate leakers too! I install the oil pump seal in the housing, lube the sleeve, and slide the assembly on the crank to keep things lined up. Be careful to keep the mating surfaces flush with each other. Install the oil pump assembly dry. Oil can run down and cause the loctite not to seal. When you prime the engine it will get oil then.

I assume you sealed the crank girdle to the block before torquing the main studs? Orange loctite here too.

I would use the factory oil pump pickup seal instead of the clear Victor Reinz seal. Mine partially melted, and I found pieces of it stuck to the pickup screen when I had to reseal the oil pump.

Chris...frustrating to say the least. You will win!

azmi951

hey zero,
you keep saying that your torque wrench is not acurate, it needs to be. My father tried to assemble a motor with a harbor freight wrench and it was so far off it put the bearings out of spec (plasigauge).

Get a good torque wrench.

cruise98

If you are still using the factory rod bolts, the nuts are a single use item. So if you have been using the new ones, you need new ones again. Cheap insurance at this point.