What is the most cost effective way to reach 400 rwhp?
02-07-2005, 03:18 AM
#31
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NZ951
The SFR 420 kit has JME parts included (head/cam/valvetrain... but the head is substantially modified above and beyond what JME provides and the cam is not an "off the shelf" JME cam).
It's a very complete kit.
TonyG
The SFR 420 kit has JME parts included (head/cam/valvetrain... but the head is substantially modified above and beyond what JME provides and the cam is not an "off the shelf" JME cam).
It's a very complete kit.
TonyG
02-07-2005, 03:39 AM
#32
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Originally Posted by fast951
For a street car, the less lag you have the better.. Since it's a street car and you are not concerned about rules (as racers are). I would go with a large displacement engine. A 3.0 or 3.1l will be on top of my list. (you can keep the 2.5l crank and get 2.7 or 2.8l), but the longer stroke makes it a joy for a street car. The area under the curve is broader with the larger engines.
A 2.5l will deliver 400rwhp, and can be driven on a daily basis.. However if you are rebuilding anyway, the larger displacement might cost a bit more up front but well worth it.
The miles you can go between rebuilds depends on how you drive it... A stock 951 driven hard 100% of the time will require a rebuild before 100K miles.. Things simply wear out...
There is no reason a well built engine wouldn't last 100K miles even at 400rwhp. Of course, on the street you will rarely use the 400rwhp... Based on my experience with customers, most are happy with 320-350rwhp on a daily basis.. More than that and it becomes a traction issue.. Of course, most customers do exercise all the ponies every now and then.
A 2.5l will deliver 400rwhp, and can be driven on a daily basis.. However if you are rebuilding anyway, the larger displacement might cost a bit more up front but well worth it.
The miles you can go between rebuilds depends on how you drive it... A stock 951 driven hard 100% of the time will require a rebuild before 100K miles.. Things simply wear out...
There is no reason a well built engine wouldn't last 100K miles even at 400rwhp. Of course, on the street you will rarely use the 400rwhp... Based on my experience with customers, most are happy with 320-350rwhp on a daily basis.. More than that and it becomes a traction issue.. Of course, most customers do exercise all the ponies every now and then.
Originally Posted by Ski
"most people are happy with 320-350" - good point John, hell I'm happy with 318/324 @15psi.
One thing to consider with less than the 400 hp goal is to lighten it up so that 350 will feel like 400. Just asking here, have you taken a ride in a car with 320-350rwhp? They're pretty quick.
One thing to consider with less than the 400 hp goal is to lighten it up so that 350 will feel like 400. Just asking here, have you taken a ride in a car with 320-350rwhp? They're pretty quick.
Originally Posted by TonyG
But... as the old saying goes..., "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?".
02-07-2005, 03:48 AM
#33
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>>>The question I have is for how long? Aren't we asking a hell of a lot out of a 2.5, over a long duration, as opposed to trying to get the same power with more displacement? <<<
Is a 2.5L short block at 400RWHP more stressed than a 3.0L short block at 400RWHP?
Is the crank loading, rod load, and piston side loading the same?
After all... it's the short block that deals with the loads.
The Carrillo rods are the same. The pistons (951 turbo vs 968TurboS) are the same except the diameter. The 3 liter crank is no stronger than the 2.5 liter crank.
So... you tell me. Is a 3 liter shot block at 400RWHP more reliable or longer lasting than a 2.5 liter short block?
TonyG
Is a 2.5L short block at 400RWHP more stressed than a 3.0L short block at 400RWHP?
Is the crank loading, rod load, and piston side loading the same?
After all... it's the short block that deals with the loads.
The Carrillo rods are the same. The pistons (951 turbo vs 968TurboS) are the same except the diameter. The 3 liter crank is no stronger than the 2.5 liter crank.
So... you tell me. Is a 3 liter shot block at 400RWHP more reliable or longer lasting than a 2.5 liter short block?
TonyG
02-07-2005, 03:55 AM
#35
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A few things.
For day to day driving, with an expectation of 100k durability, I would not be inclined to run at 20 psi, as a base line. I would run closer to 15 psi with the option, if I want it.
Tony I looked for SFR's kit. Couldn't find it. Would you have a link?
SKI, yes I have been in a number of cars with 320 to 350 hp, from old muscle cars to a current, heavily modified Z06. I know it's a lot of power. It's also more than I'll use everyday, but the 400 target gets me to a level where I have more than I need. Thus stopping the upgrade addiction cycle. ..I hope.
I am going to do some lightening. The back seat is history, cruise, which I hate, pissers, and associated components, cat is already gone, and the new exhaust was about 29 lbs lighter, I'll be buying light weight adjustable sports seats, to replace the concrete benches the factory installed, (Damn they're heavy) and lastly, I'll replace a few body parts, where they aren't critical to safety.
As for actual HP, keep in mind that this will be a street car, so the ability to dyno a huge number, at 6500, in 5th gear isn't really what I'm after. Having the ability to change to a big turbo will be a nice option, but I want the power down low, so the components to transfer the power will be expensive. I'm looking at that as a separate issue. Thanks all.
For day to day driving, with an expectation of 100k durability, I would not be inclined to run at 20 psi, as a base line. I would run closer to 15 psi with the option, if I want it.
Tony I looked for SFR's kit. Couldn't find it. Would you have a link?
SKI, yes I have been in a number of cars with 320 to 350 hp, from old muscle cars to a current, heavily modified Z06. I know it's a lot of power. It's also more than I'll use everyday, but the 400 target gets me to a level where I have more than I need. Thus stopping the upgrade addiction cycle. ..I hope.
I am going to do some lightening. The back seat is history, cruise, which I hate, pissers, and associated components, cat is already gone, and the new exhaust was about 29 lbs lighter, I'll be buying light weight adjustable sports seats, to replace the concrete benches the factory installed, (Damn they're heavy) and lastly, I'll replace a few body parts, where they aren't critical to safety.
As for actual HP, keep in mind that this will be a street car, so the ability to dyno a huge number, at 6500, in 5th gear isn't really what I'm after. Having the ability to change to a big turbo will be a nice option, but I want the power down low, so the components to transfer the power will be expensive. I'm looking at that as a separate issue. Thanks all.
02-07-2005, 03:59 AM
#36
Assuming one is at disposal of a 951 S fitted with a complete Cup suspension, how far can one rwhp-wise reasonably go if retaining the stock drivetrain with the stock 245/45 ZR 16 tyres ? Vitesse stage 2 ? Stage 3 ?
02-07-2005, 04:16 AM
#37
Race Director
Originally Posted by TonyG
NZ951
The SFR 420 kit has JME parts included (head/cam/valvetrain... but the head is substantially modified above and beyond what JME provides and the cam is not an "off the shelf" JME cam).
It's a very complete kit.
TonyG
The SFR 420 kit has JME parts included (head/cam/valvetrain... but the head is substantially modified above and beyond what JME provides and the cam is not an "off the shelf" JME cam).
It's a very complete kit.
TonyG
$650 for a custom JME cam IS money WELL spent IMO. I expect I will need a couple of them at some stage this year. I would like your opinion actually Tony.
I am 99% sure I want a 2.7 16V turbo, using a 3.0 block, stock crank, some 8:1 JE's, and a 968 head. What are your thoughts generaly about the project?
02-07-2005, 04:16 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by ehall
I know it's a lot of power. It's also more than I'll use everyday, but the 400 target gets me to a level where I have more than I need. Thus stopping the upgrade addiction cycle. ..I hope.
Power is highly addictive............you will always want more.......
PS: You could make a 350whp faster than a 400whp car IIRC (even if the weight the same).
02-07-2005, 04:19 AM
#39
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Originally Posted by ehall
A few things.
For day to day driving, with an expectation of 100k durability, I would not be inclined to run at 20 psi, as a base line. I would run closer to 15 psi with the option, if I want it.
Tony I looked for SFR's kit. Couldn't find it. Would you have a link?
SKI, yes I have been in a number of cars with 320 to 350 hp, from old muscle cars to a current, heavily modified Z06. I know it's a lot of power. It's also more than I'll use everyday, but the 400 target gets me to a level where I have more than I need. Thus stopping the upgrade addiction cycle. ..I hope.
I am going to do some lightening. The back seat is history, cruise, which I hate, pissers, and associated components, cat is already gone, and the new exhaust was about 29 lbs lighter, I'll be buying light weight adjustable sports seats, to replace the concrete benches the factory installed, (Damn they're heavy) and lastly, I'll replace a few body parts, where they aren't critical to safety.
As for actual HP, keep in mind that this will be a street car, so the ability to dyno a huge number, at 6500, in 5th gear isn't really what I'm after. Having the ability to change to a big turbo will be a nice option, but I want the power down low, so the components to transfer the power will be expensive. I'm looking at that as a separate issue. Thanks all.
For day to day driving, with an expectation of 100k durability, I would not be inclined to run at 20 psi, as a base line. I would run closer to 15 psi with the option, if I want it.
Tony I looked for SFR's kit. Couldn't find it. Would you have a link?
SKI, yes I have been in a number of cars with 320 to 350 hp, from old muscle cars to a current, heavily modified Z06. I know it's a lot of power. It's also more than I'll use everyday, but the 400 target gets me to a level where I have more than I need. Thus stopping the upgrade addiction cycle. ..I hope.
I am going to do some lightening. The back seat is history, cruise, which I hate, pissers, and associated components, cat is already gone, and the new exhaust was about 29 lbs lighter, I'll be buying light weight adjustable sports seats, to replace the concrete benches the factory installed, (Damn they're heavy) and lastly, I'll replace a few body parts, where they aren't critical to safety.
As for actual HP, keep in mind that this will be a street car, so the ability to dyno a huge number, at 6500, in 5th gear isn't really what I'm after. Having the ability to change to a big turbo will be a nice option, but I want the power down low, so the components to transfer the power will be expensive. I'm looking at that as a separate issue. Thanks all.
Dude,
http://www.speedforceracing.com/prod...ynoresults.php
I dont think its an "off the shelf" kit exactly, but there is a dyno sheet of a 2.8 420HP SFR car. Best to give Tim a call and he will scope out the best plan of attack based on your HP goals and where you want the power! .
02-07-2005, 05:16 AM
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Few pointers, not technical, but I have seen way too many mismanaged projects.. Ehal, I'm sure you are aware of most if not all of the followings...
- Keep it SIMPLE
- A well managed project stands a chance to produce results
- Set goals in line with your budget
- Draw a plan with deadlines and keep your plan somewhat flexible
- Pick the best people you can find for the price you are willing to pay. Have one person oversee the project "Project Manager"? Make sure everyone understands the big picture and their particular responsibilities. Check "note" below, people you work with play a big role in how you feel about the project.
- Any time a change is made, evaluate how it affects the rest of the system.
- Turn your BS filters ON, much of it goes around.
note: No matter how great and strong of a package you endup with, if you do not have fun and you do not enjoy the process you "failed".. Building a 500HP 951 must be fun, or it makes no sense.
- Keep it SIMPLE
- A well managed project stands a chance to produce results
- Set goals in line with your budget
- Draw a plan with deadlines and keep your plan somewhat flexible
- Pick the best people you can find for the price you are willing to pay. Have one person oversee the project "Project Manager"? Make sure everyone understands the big picture and their particular responsibilities. Check "note" below, people you work with play a big role in how you feel about the project.
- Any time a change is made, evaluate how it affects the rest of the system.
- Turn your BS filters ON, much of it goes around.
note: No matter how great and strong of a package you endup with, if you do not have fun and you do not enjoy the process you "failed".. Building a 500HP 951 must be fun, or it makes no sense.
02-07-2005, 05:33 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by fast951
Few pointers, not technical, but I have seen way too many mismanaged projects.. Ehal, I'm sure you are aware of most if not all of the followings...
- Keep it SIMPLE
- A well managed project stands a chance to produce results
- Set goals in line with your budget
- Draw a plan with deadlines and keep your plan somewhat flexible
- Pick the best people you can find for the price you are willing to pay. Have one person oversee the project "Project Manager"? Make sure everyone understands the big picture and their particular responsibilities. Check "note" below, people you work with play a big role in how you feel about the project.
- Any time a change is made, evaluate how it affects the rest of the system.
- Turn your BS filters ON, much of it goes around.
note: No matter how great and strong of a package you endup with, if you do not have fun and you do not enjoy the process you "failed".. Building a 500HP 951 must be fun, or it makes no sense.
- Keep it SIMPLE
- A well managed project stands a chance to produce results
- Set goals in line with your budget
- Draw a plan with deadlines and keep your plan somewhat flexible
- Pick the best people you can find for the price you are willing to pay. Have one person oversee the project "Project Manager"? Make sure everyone understands the big picture and their particular responsibilities. Check "note" below, people you work with play a big role in how you feel about the project.
- Any time a change is made, evaluate how it affects the rest of the system.
- Turn your BS filters ON, much of it goes around.
note: No matter how great and strong of a package you endup with, if you do not have fun and you do not enjoy the process you "failed".. Building a 500HP 951 must be fun, or it makes no sense.
02-07-2005, 06:55 AM
#42
Thom - i have the complete escort suspension and 275's. They turn into smoke in 1st, second and third gear at anything over 350-360 RWHP. And I mean at mid-rev range all the way to redline at 100 MPH, none of this ***** small-block chirp after a shift bull****. 
-Maybe my light weight and the stiff Billys make the tires more prone to spin than stock, however.
-Maybe my light weight and the stiff Billys make the tires more prone to spin than stock, however.
02-07-2005, 09:18 AM
#43
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Originally Posted by NZ951
Dude,
http://www.speedforceracing.com/prod...ynoresults.php
I dont think its an "off the shelf" kit exactly, but there is a dyno sheet of a 2.8 420HP SFR car. Best to give Tim a call and he will scope out the best plan of attack based on your HP goals and where you want the power! .
http://www.speedforceracing.com/prod...ynoresults.php
I dont think its an "off the shelf" kit exactly, but there is a dyno sheet of a 2.8 420HP SFR car. Best to give Tim a call and he will scope out the best plan of attack based on your HP goals and where you want the power! .
500+ TQ, that was an AMW engine.
02-07-2005, 09:31 AM
#44
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Originally Posted by special tool
yeah man - you are heading into the crazy zone at around 370 RWHP with 275 rear tires - no grip at all.
At around 400-425 RWHP you will spin the factory clutch like a dradle at Hanukah
Other than that, you know what I would say to buy...
At around 400-425 RWHP you will spin the factory clutch like a dradle at Hanukah
Other than that, you know what I would say to buy...
02-07-2005, 09:54 AM
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Ok – I think that the question needs to be defined better as the answer will be severely effected by a couple of details.
• You want 400 rwhp, OK – tell me what for?
• One dyno pull
• Street driving at 1 bar with occasional high boost acceleration runs (brief max boost)
• Autoban driving – extended high boost cursing
• Drag Racing
• DE Driving at medium boost with max boost available for dyno/occasional street
• DE Driving at max boost
• Club Racing at medium boost with max boost available for qualifying
• Endurance racing – 24 hours
• I’m a whacko that runs max boost all the time including in my driveway
Be honest about the answer – other wise you will not get what you want. If you ask for the best be prepared to spend a significant chunk of change, like $15k+
Here is the range – for the price of a turbo, fuel injectors and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator I can get you to 400rwhp….once – and the car will be complete crap at anything other than max power (no charge for cutting the wastegate hose).
On the other end – sleeve 3.1 liter block with Tec3, turbo, wastegate, Intercooler, yada, yada, yada.
Track driving is very different that street driving - engines need to be ‘overbuilt’ and then detuned a tad for longevity on the track.
So – evaluate your requirements and ask again! As in many other decisions in life don’t simply accept the ‘low bid’ - select the correct set up to support your goals.
Chris White
• You want 400 rwhp, OK – tell me what for?
• One dyno pull
• Street driving at 1 bar with occasional high boost acceleration runs (brief max boost)
• Autoban driving – extended high boost cursing
• Drag Racing
• DE Driving at medium boost with max boost available for dyno/occasional street
• DE Driving at max boost
• Club Racing at medium boost with max boost available for qualifying
• Endurance racing – 24 hours
• I’m a whacko that runs max boost all the time including in my driveway
Be honest about the answer – other wise you will not get what you want. If you ask for the best be prepared to spend a significant chunk of change, like $15k+
Here is the range – for the price of a turbo, fuel injectors and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator I can get you to 400rwhp….once – and the car will be complete crap at anything other than max power (no charge for cutting the wastegate hose).
On the other end – sleeve 3.1 liter block with Tec3, turbo, wastegate, Intercooler, yada, yada, yada.
Track driving is very different that street driving - engines need to be ‘overbuilt’ and then detuned a tad for longevity on the track.
So – evaluate your requirements and ask again! As in many other decisions in life don’t simply accept the ‘low bid’ - select the correct set up to support your goals.
Chris White