Does FWD handle better than RWD?
11-03-2004, 02:55 PM
#31
Originally Posted by allstar_02
I always thought that a 944 was RWD but now this thread has me confused. Is the 944 RWD or FWD?
11-03-2004, 03:58 PM
#33
Instructor
Hello All,
I thought that I would chime in here as a guy who just came out of a Corrado VR6 for a 951S about 6 months ago.
We all know that RWD will be faster around a road course ultimately.
I think that Tomas is spot on when he factors in horsepower levels.
That said, however, a properly set up FWD car can acquit itself admirably in many circumstances.
To wit:
I used to have a fully suspensioned (shocks/springs/sways/stressbars/rollcage/poly bushings) GTi 16V. With only about 150 hp, I was about as fast through medium-speed canyons as a stock 993 cab. I was quicker through the corners, but slower in the straights. In the same car I actually was able to make a u-turn and catch up to a 993TT in a VERY tight canyon (and I was driving very hard). So, he could not use his power, and I did not have enough of it to be a problem putting it down.
My Corrado also had poly bushings/sways/coilovers/stressbars/rollbar and handled extremely well (and I could oversteer it in most corners at will). With mods I had about 200hp with 200lb/ft. As has been mentioned, accelerating out of a tight corner is not a FWD forte. This can be offset to a large degree by driving style. Coming in fast and rotating the car helps maintain a high cornering speed. At a DE event at the Streets of Willow racetrack the only cars in my rungroup (15 cars) that were faster were a modded ZO6 and a modded C5 driven by an ex-Trans Am driver. Those cars were SCARY fast . . .
Anyway, there was a 993 coupe (maybe my speed or a bit slower). There also was a stock WRX on race tires who would not let me pass (at a DE event!) for about 3 laps. Once he waved me by, I pulled out about 10 sec a lap (also driving very hard). I am not Michael Schumacher, so I think that a lot of the difference was just the cars.
So, I guess how much better a RWD car will handle depends on where the car is used and how it is set up. My Corrado would have DESTROYED my 951S on a really tight canyon, but my p-car is basically stock (so probably not a fair comparison). The high ratios of the gearbox ensure that I am in lag mode until just the very end of a corner. Remember this is in TIGHT cyns. The P-car will understeer if I try to enter the corners faster. The 944 is much better balanced (obviously), and it is much easier to drive fast, i.e., more forgiving of errors.
Please, no flames, just giving my firsthand experience of both cars.
Sincerely,
j
I thought that I would chime in here as a guy who just came out of a Corrado VR6 for a 951S about 6 months ago.
We all know that RWD will be faster around a road course ultimately.
I think that Tomas is spot on when he factors in horsepower levels.
That said, however, a properly set up FWD car can acquit itself admirably in many circumstances.
To wit:
I used to have a fully suspensioned (shocks/springs/sways/stressbars/rollcage/poly bushings) GTi 16V. With only about 150 hp, I was about as fast through medium-speed canyons as a stock 993 cab. I was quicker through the corners, but slower in the straights. In the same car I actually was able to make a u-turn and catch up to a 993TT in a VERY tight canyon (and I was driving very hard). So, he could not use his power, and I did not have enough of it to be a problem putting it down.
My Corrado also had poly bushings/sways/coilovers/stressbars/rollbar and handled extremely well (and I could oversteer it in most corners at will). With mods I had about 200hp with 200lb/ft. As has been mentioned, accelerating out of a tight corner is not a FWD forte. This can be offset to a large degree by driving style. Coming in fast and rotating the car helps maintain a high cornering speed. At a DE event at the Streets of Willow racetrack the only cars in my rungroup (15 cars) that were faster were a modded ZO6 and a modded C5 driven by an ex-Trans Am driver. Those cars were SCARY fast . . .
Anyway, there was a 993 coupe (maybe my speed or a bit slower). There also was a stock WRX on race tires who would not let me pass (at a DE event!) for about 3 laps. Once he waved me by, I pulled out about 10 sec a lap (also driving very hard). I am not Michael Schumacher, so I think that a lot of the difference was just the cars.
So, I guess how much better a RWD car will handle depends on where the car is used and how it is set up. My Corrado would have DESTROYED my 951S on a really tight canyon, but my p-car is basically stock (so probably not a fair comparison). The high ratios of the gearbox ensure that I am in lag mode until just the very end of a corner. Remember this is in TIGHT cyns. The P-car will understeer if I try to enter the corners faster. The 944 is much better balanced (obviously), and it is much easier to drive fast, i.e., more forgiving of errors.
Please, no flames, just giving my firsthand experience of both cars.
Sincerely,
j
11-03-2004, 04:13 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by Kesepton
haha, thats kinda funny actually. You can tell if a car is RWD or FWD by the way the engine is placed in the car. If it has the belts facing left or right and there is an electric fan, fwd. If the engine's belts are facing forward and there is a clutch fan, youve got rwd. I have never found an exception.
11-03-2004, 04:19 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by jasoncoker
Hello All,
I thought that I would chime in here as a guy who just came out of a Corrado VR6 for a 951S about 6 months ago.
We all know that RWD will be faster around a road course ultimately.
I think that Tomas is spot on when he factors in horsepower levels.
That said, however, a properly set up FWD car can acquit itself admirably in many circumstances.
To wit:
I used to have a fully suspensioned (shocks/springs/sways/stressbars/rollcage/poly bushings) GTi 16V. With only about 150 hp, I was about as fast through medium-speed canyons as a stock 993 cab. I was quicker through the corners, but slower in the straights. In the same car I actually was able to make a u-turn and catch up to a 993TT in a VERY tight canyon (and I was driving very hard). So, he could not use his power, and I did not have enough of it to be a problem putting it down.
My Corrado also had poly bushings/sways/coilovers/stressbars/rollbar and handled extremely well (and I could oversteer it in most corners at will). With mods I had about 200hp with 200lb/ft. As has been mentioned, accelerating out of a tight corner is not a FWD forte. This can be offset to a large degree by driving style. Coming in fast and rotating the car helps maintain a high cornering speed. At a DE event at the Streets of Willow racetrack the only cars in my rungroup (15 cars) that were faster were a modded ZO6 and a modded C5 driven by an ex-Trans Am driver. Those cars were SCARY fast . . .
Anyway, there was a 993 coupe (maybe my speed or a bit slower). There also was a stock WRX on race tires who would not let me pass (at a DE event!) for about 3 laps. Once he waved me by, I pulled out about 10 sec a lap (also driving very hard). I am not Michael Schumacher, so I think that a lot of the difference was just the cars.
So, I guess how much better a RWD car will handle depends on where the car is used and how it is set up. My Corrado would have DESTROYED my 951S on a really tight canyon, but my p-car is basically stock (so probably not a fair comparison). The high ratios of the gearbox ensure that I am in lag mode until just the very end of a corner. Remember this is in TIGHT cyns. The P-car will understeer if I try to enter the corners faster. The 944 is much better balanced (obviously), and it is much easier to drive fast, i.e., more forgiving of errors.
Please, no flames, just giving my firsthand experience of both cars.
Sincerely,
j
I thought that I would chime in here as a guy who just came out of a Corrado VR6 for a 951S about 6 months ago.
We all know that RWD will be faster around a road course ultimately.
I think that Tomas is spot on when he factors in horsepower levels.
That said, however, a properly set up FWD car can acquit itself admirably in many circumstances.
To wit:
I used to have a fully suspensioned (shocks/springs/sways/stressbars/rollcage/poly bushings) GTi 16V. With only about 150 hp, I was about as fast through medium-speed canyons as a stock 993 cab. I was quicker through the corners, but slower in the straights. In the same car I actually was able to make a u-turn and catch up to a 993TT in a VERY tight canyon (and I was driving very hard). So, he could not use his power, and I did not have enough of it to be a problem putting it down.
My Corrado also had poly bushings/sways/coilovers/stressbars/rollbar and handled extremely well (and I could oversteer it in most corners at will). With mods I had about 200hp with 200lb/ft. As has been mentioned, accelerating out of a tight corner is not a FWD forte. This can be offset to a large degree by driving style. Coming in fast and rotating the car helps maintain a high cornering speed. At a DE event at the Streets of Willow racetrack the only cars in my rungroup (15 cars) that were faster were a modded ZO6 and a modded C5 driven by an ex-Trans Am driver. Those cars were SCARY fast . . .
Anyway, there was a 993 coupe (maybe my speed or a bit slower). There also was a stock WRX on race tires who would not let me pass (at a DE event!) for about 3 laps. Once he waved me by, I pulled out about 10 sec a lap (also driving very hard). I am not Michael Schumacher, so I think that a lot of the difference was just the cars.
So, I guess how much better a RWD car will handle depends on where the car is used and how it is set up. My Corrado would have DESTROYED my 951S on a really tight canyon, but my p-car is basically stock (so probably not a fair comparison). The high ratios of the gearbox ensure that I am in lag mode until just the very end of a corner. Remember this is in TIGHT cyns. The P-car will understeer if I try to enter the corners faster. The 944 is much better balanced (obviously), and it is much easier to drive fast, i.e., more forgiving of errors.
Please, no flames, just giving my firsthand experience of both cars.
Sincerely,
j
11-03-2004, 04:42 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by 9fitty1
Thanks for the in-depth explaination. haha
I always get sucked into long explanations but you are right I must contribute properly and educationally.
Let’s first address a misnomer of what does it mean for a car to be called a great handling car. It does not really refer to stickiness, under steer or over steer of a car - it is simply referring to what the car feels like to the driver. The issues described here would be - does it turn in well, does it brake well, does it do unusual things when pushed to the limits, is it soft or hard over bumps and so on…
When discussing over steer and under steer however the two are more related to the characteristics of a RWD car versus FWD car rather than being attributed to handling but having said that I see how people get them mixed up as they kind of overlap. A FWD car can also over steer if taken to extreme but let’s not go there for the purpose of this exercise.
In a nut shell under steer = FWD car and over steer = RWD car.
Under steering car is designed to be safe. This is why your wife can drive it (and still manages to crash it) but it will never beat RWD car in a race.
The whole point is in the issue of tire traction – traction management.
Tires can only give you 100% in one of three things you are asking them to do: acceleration, braking and turning. You don’t need to be a genius to work out that in the FWD car scenario fronts are doing both or all three things at once. So as you are exiting your bend on full lock (79% is spent on turning) and then you accelerate full on as you want to catch the Porsche upfront) but you haven’t got much traction left. That is not good when driving fast is it? It slows you down. FWD cars are designed to under steer because when your wife panics in the middle of the bend she drove in to hot she instinctively lifts her foot of the accelerator and the car tucks back into line. So on the limit FWD cars kind of go straight do not do any nasty things and if you back off they tuck back in.
You however are a racing maniac and you know you can drive faster through that bend as the Porsche in front is doing so and getting away - bastard. Porsche however is a RWD car and RWD car is asking fronts to steer and rears to accelerate – now this is why Porsches can take the bends ahead of FWD cars and why true sports cars are RWD. The % split is lower and tires give more grip to the RWD car.
But they require skill to drive well because when you turn in accelerating at the rear (wheels pointing straight) whilst front wheels are turned in you risk loosing your back = over steer. Once the skill is mastered - Corrado handling or should I say characteristics are for the boring only.
So RWD cars are for proper drivers and FWD cars are for wusses.
Hope this helps…
11-03-2004, 05:20 PM
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So as you are exiting your bend on full lock (79% is spent on turning) and then you accelerate full on as you want to catch the Porsche upfront) but you haven’t got much traction left.
Otherwise it's correct that the more you turn the wheel in a corner (= the tighter the corner is) the more grip is wasted on the front wheels because they will travel a tighter curve than the rears. In a faster corner were the steering angle is small this effect is small.
11-03-2004, 05:41 PM
#38
Instructor
9fitty1,
I have more experience with FWD handling, but still have many years of RWD handling experience. The differences between my 951S and old Corrado were not due to being a RWD novice. As I mentioned previously, the Corrado (and GTi) both had the suspension completely redone. My 951 is way softer, both in spring rate and roll stiffness. Also, it is fairly laggy and has widely spaced gear ratios. These factors conspire to slow it down in a very tight canyon.
Simon, I am not saying that FWD is better. RWD is one of the reasons (among many others) that I got my p-car. Incidentally, my Corrado was tail happy compared to the 951 which has more understeer. Careful with the generalizations, mate. My car has the stock "S" suspension, which I have not gotten the opportunity to stiffen yet. I am sure that doing so will help quite a bit. I do not mean to imply that the 951 is a poor handling car. It is great, but most stock cars have a lot of compromises in them to account for the market's desire for a good ride. The VWs had those compromises addressed.
Tomas, you are right about tight corners and front wheel loading, however, multiple tight corners in quick succession preclude even RWD cars from putting their power down (because they will have too much speed entering the next turn).
I have more experience with FWD handling, but still have many years of RWD handling experience. The differences between my 951S and old Corrado were not due to being a RWD novice. As I mentioned previously, the Corrado (and GTi) both had the suspension completely redone. My 951 is way softer, both in spring rate and roll stiffness. Also, it is fairly laggy and has widely spaced gear ratios. These factors conspire to slow it down in a very tight canyon.
Simon, I am not saying that FWD is better. RWD is one of the reasons (among many others) that I got my p-car. Incidentally, my Corrado was tail happy compared to the 951 which has more understeer. Careful with the generalizations, mate. My car has the stock "S" suspension, which I have not gotten the opportunity to stiffen yet. I am sure that doing so will help quite a bit. I do not mean to imply that the 951 is a poor handling car. It is great, but most stock cars have a lot of compromises in them to account for the market's desire for a good ride. The VWs had those compromises addressed.
Tomas, you are right about tight corners and front wheel loading, however, multiple tight corners in quick succession preclude even RWD cars from putting their power down (because they will have too much speed entering the next turn).
11-03-2004, 06:55 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by Tomas L
Many FWD Audis have the engine longitudinal in the car.
The old Saab 900s are also a longitudinally mounted FWD car. Not sure about newer ones.
Subaru's too but then they're AWD so it only makes sense.
I'm sure there are plenty more I'm overlooking.
11-03-2004, 07:37 PM
#40
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haha, thats kinda funny actually. You can tell if a car is RWD or FWD by the way the engine is placed in the car. If it has the belts facing left or right and there is an electric fan, fwd. If the engine's belts are facing forward and there is a clutch fan, youve got rwd. I have never found an exception.
An easier, failsafe way to check if a car is FWD or RWD or AWD/4WD is to just get on all fours and look. If there are axles in the front, it's FWD; if there are axles in the rear, it's RWD; if there are axles at all corners, it's AWD/4WD. This isn't rocket science here people
So, I guess how much better a RWD car will handle depends on where the car is used and how it is set up. My Corrado would have DESTROYED my 951S on a really tight canyon, but my p-car is basically stock (so probably not a fair comparison). The high ratios of the gearbox ensure that I am in lag mode until just the very end of a corner. Remember this is in TIGHT cyns. The P-car will understeer if I try to enter the corners faster. The 944 is much better balanced (obviously), and it is much easier to drive fast, i.e., more forgiving of errors.
By the way... track your 951, or find some deserted roads with great runoff area to find your 951's limits (excessively sized parking lots are fun too). You'll be surprised at what that car will outrun and outhandle even from recent years.
Let’s first address a misnomer of what does it mean for a car to be called a great handling car. It does not really refer to stickiness, under steer or over steer of a car - it is simply referring to what the car feels like to the driver. The issues described here would be - does it turn in well, does it brake well, does it do unusual things when pushed to the limits, is it soft or hard over bumps and so on…
two more cents in the collection box,
KR
11-04-2004, 03:27 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by Tomas L
If you are exiting a bend at full lock you should get of the gocart track...
Otherwise it's correct that the more you turn the wheel in a corner (= the tighter the corner is) the more grip is wasted on the front wheels because they will travel a tighter curve than the rears. In a faster corner were the steering angle is small this effect is small.
Otherwise it's correct that the more you turn the wheel in a corner (= the tighter the corner is) the more grip is wasted on the front wheels because they will travel a tighter curve than the rears. In a faster corner were the steering angle is small this effect is small.
11-04-2004, 03:30 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by FSAEracer03
I disagree to a point Simon. That is one definition of "handling" but that isn't the one we're talking about. I believe the starter of this thread was asking what car negotiates turns better, which is more keen on track times, and the like.KR
Hey guys,
I have been asking myself this question for awhile now. A friend of mine has a corrado vr6. His car handles very well. Im just asking because the ablity of a car to handle well is in the stickiness of it to the road...including suspension, temp, tires, balance..yeah yeah yeah. So with FWD you have the engine and trans weight on the front tires, that adds more weight therefore making it more difficult to move the tires so it sticks better. Also, there might be more oversteer, but if you can just throw yourself into a turn know you wont hav any understeer you can just correct the oversteer...i dont know about you but i cant correct understeer. I know that I have understeering issues...but lets not get into that. Does FWD handle better than RWD..both with ideal setups....I am a little confused on this and was hoping for a little input from those you track/autoX. Thanks
11-04-2004, 03:42 AM
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seriously guys, think about it. if fwd really did handle better than rwd, don't you think that every single race and performance car would be be made fwd by now? the fact that every race car is made rwd should tell you something.
11-04-2004, 03:55 AM
#45
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Originally Posted by SimonK
Also, there might be more oversteer, but if you can just throw yourself into a turn know you wont hav any understeer you can just correct the oversteer...i dont know about you but i cant correct understeer. I know that I have understeering issues...but lets not get into that. Does FWD handle better than RWD..both with ideal setups....I am a little confused on this and was hoping for a little input from those you track/autoX. Thanks
Understeer is harder to correct, very true, and can put you in very poor situations. However, if the car pushes some, lift off the throttle to let the front end grab again. If it's extreme, transfer even more weight to the front with the brakes.
A FWD car does NOT handle better than a RWD car, both with their ideal setups.