Adrian

I am assuming that you have never heard of the various Touring Car Racing Championships held around the world and in the USA. Very few RWDs left only the BMW and maybe a couple of others.
Ever been to the Nurbürgring in Germany for the 24 hr endurance race you will see plenty of FWD racing cars competing against Porsche and BMW. Alfa Romeo have been European Touring Car champions with their 156 FWD. This year it went to BMW.
You might want to check with the FIA and see the FWD race car homolgations.
The vast majority of cars in Europe are FWD.
Ferdinand Porsche Snr helped develop the FWD transmission system in the 1920s.
I recommend you type into an internet search engine FWD racing cars. You might be very surprised what you find.
Alvis were racing FWD cars back in the 1920s
You might also want to read up on the great American race car designer Harry Miller. One of his FWD race cars came second at Indy.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
GT-2

FSAEracer03

That's not a very fair portion of info. At face value Adrian, yes, many European touring cars are FWD. The only reason for that though is that the platforms (I don't know the plural of chassis) they are using are FWD... in other words, it's only that way bacause the majority of European cars are small FWD cars!

Harry Miller's FWD Indy car came in second in 1925. I don't think that's a very relavant point any more seeing as racecars from that day weren't exactly as "developed" as racecars of today. Motorsports and race engineering were in their birth in 1925.

Formula 1, all RWD; Indy, all RWD; CART, all RWD; Le Mans, all RWD (with the exception of an AWD car here and there). Within recent past, no FWD car has been even thought of in these series let alone competative. There's a reason for that.

Adrian

Dear Kevin,
The statement made was that there are no FWD racing cars. That statement is false. I can go and dig up a current list of homologated FWD racing cars if you wish or you can find it yourself. www.fia.com.
There is more to motor racing than the series you have mentioned. The Touring car championships around the world including Japan have many if not the majority of competitors driving FWD.
If you do not consider what Europeans or other nations racing as motorsports then fine but the statement made was incorrect.
One fine example of an FWD racing car was the Mini Cooper S. World Rally Champion and winner of many road racing championships as well. There is here in Europe the VW Beetle championship (new version) which is FWD.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
GT-2

Tomas L

Yes, there is FWD racing cars.
There are however no FWD cars in racing classes there they would have to race on equal terms with RWD cars. All touring car championships are designed to market consumer cars, which in Europe are mostly FWD. Therefore the regulations in these classes are made to favour FWD cars by giving the lower weigth. What can be said is that, in these classes which can be considered "low power", the difference would not be that great if FWD and RWD would compete on equal terms, but there would be a difference.

Tomas

jasoncoker

Dear Kevin,

You said:
Well, that's going to be one tight *** canyon in order for the 951 to lose. The steering on a little VDub is going to be a little more reactive thanx to a generally smaller car overall. If you want to compare cars that are equal in size, but differ in drive wheels, look at the Elise vs. an older GTi. They both have tiny wheelbases, light chassis and a decent amount of power for what they are intended to do. Take them on a very tight mountain course and see who wins... I know who I'd bet on.


I do not know if you have any experience with high performance FWD (you very well may), but I think you underestimate FWD cars that are properly set up. FWD cars generally have good steering response b/c they carry much of their weight over the front wheels (which is why they also do well in inclement weather). It is not necessarily b/c they generally are smaller cars (though that helps). The weight differences in my examples were significant. I am certain that they worked against the p-cars that I discussed. My GTi was 2350lbs with full cage and interior. The 993tt I caught was close to 1000lbs heavier. Likewise, my Corrado was 2750lbs while my 951 is about 3100lbs. These are all significant differences, and help to offfset the acknowledged drawbacks of FWD. That is also not to mention that both p-cars were turbos (lag), were stock, and were geared way too high for a road that tight.

I see your example of the Elise as quite a stretch. I would bet on the Elise as well if it were pitted against the GTi. It is significantly lighter, and has way more hp, is better balanced, etc.. I do not proffer my examples as proof that FWD is better than RWD, b/c I do not believe that it is. I mention them as actual experience I have with both modes of drive. I believe that it is folly to dismiss FWD out of hand as always significantly inferior under all circumstances. Once again, I am not sure if you have driven or ridden in an Elise, but I think that you would find that it would destroy a stock 951 in the canyons as well.

You said:
By the way... track your 951, or find some deserted roads with great runoff area to find your 951's limits (excessively sized parking lots are fun too). You'll be surprised at what that car will outrun and outhandle even from recent years.


This is a bit patronizing, don't you think? I do not mean to flame, but you are presuming quite a lot. I did not just drive my first p-car, you know. I have liked the 951 for about 16 yrs now.

You said:
That's not exactly accurate. No FWD car will ever rid itself completely of understeer, and the chances of getting oversteer is far from likely.

The chance of getting oversteer is actually quite likely if you dial out the inherent understeer of the chassis. Please refer to my comments about the 951 understeering more than my GTi or Corrado. In my experience, your comment that getting oversteer is highly unlikely is patently untrue.

You said:
A FWD car does NOT handle better than a RWD car, both with their ideal setups.

I do not think that anyone here is saying they do.

Adrian, I agree with you. I seem to remember FWD cars in the class just below WRC (formula 2?) actually getting faster times than the premier WRC cars on almost half of the tarmac rallies last year. This irked the WRC guys to no end if I recall correctly.

Sincerely,
j

Adrian

Dear Jason,
I am not entering the argument of which handles better because I have all three types in my stable, AWD, FWD and RWD and each has their good and bad points. I always raced RWD and a long time ago so I have never had experience of coming up against FWDs.
There were a couple of FWD F3 cars.
One thing I have seen is across the various car forums since I saw this thread and went looking for FWD race cars that the same topic is everywhere. Must be the flavour of the month for RWD owners to be kicking FWD cars and their owners. This thread is very tame compared to others I have seen today.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
GT-2

PS. The unofficial lap record holder at the Nurbürgring the mecca for all serious Porsche drivers to drive at least once, is held by a FWD VW Polo. The owner and driver of this car is happy to hand out driving lessons to anyone who wishes to challenge him.

FSAEracer03

Good Lord... well you two, I didn't mean to:
1) say there are no FWD racecars, but rather point out that the top racing series' in the world utilize RWD.
2) mean to patronize anyone
3) deny the fact that many FWD cars can outgun many RWD cars
4) claim I have infinite experience with FWD... I have much more experience with high performance RWD street cars and RWD racecars than FWD... though I do have enough (in my mind, at least) to discuss it.

As a matter of fact, here's a counter point to RWD being better, just for you guys, kind of in line with what Adrian said last. The top autocrosser from my region back down in FL was in an early 90's Escort (non-GT) with only suspension mods. Granted, autocross courses are a little different than road courses, and the reason he was beating Corvettes was his ability, but he still did it!

All I was trying to say was boiled down to what I thought the originator of this thread was asking (though maybe I'm wrong):
A FWD car does NOT handle better than a RWD car, both with their ideal setups.

Guys... all love. Adrian, I know we've clashed once or twice in other places, but I do respect you. If you guys are in the area sometime, I'll buy you a beer, ok?

*editted for horrible typing as always

jasoncoker

Dear Kevin,

No problem at all. I did not mean to flame, so I apologize if it came off that way.

Sincerely,
j

Tomas L

The length of the nordschleife has changed many times so it's hard to compare, but are you saying that a FWD Polo has beaten Stefan Bellof's 6 min 11s / 202 km/h lap (in a Porsche 956)?

Adrian

Dear Kevin,
I echo Jason's words, no flaming intended. I was actually originally responding to the statement of "No FWD racing cars" from another poster.
It is always dangerous ground (for arguments) when people make blanket statements.
I am sure Nicola Larini (former F1 driver you might remember who nearly lost this hand in a crash) could give a good demonstration of a FWD seeing as he drives for Alfa Romeo.
I would put NASCAR at the same level as the European Touring Car Championship so to me the ETCC soon to become the ITCC (International Touring Car Championship with I believe US cars entered) to be a top level racing competition.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
GT-2

Adrian

Dear Tomas,
I am saying what I am saying. If you want to meet this guy, have chat and have a go you will find him at the Ring almost everyday in summer. I must warn you though that this is no standard Polo. I think he gets circa 640 HP out of the engine. It is also at full ADAC Touring car racing set up standards.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
GT-2

FSAEracer03

Geez, thats a boat-load of power for any car let alone a Polo (or any FWD car)! Do you know of any internet sites that show the car?

Adrian

Dear Kevin,
Not that particular one I have only seen it once myself. There are two or three 600 plus versions that drive around and compete in the tuner shows in Germany. One is based in Bern Switzerland.
I am sure if you check out some of the German VW sites you will find these puppies. I know one other that does some serious drag racing.
We have a TV show on the German channel DSF devoted to Tuning cars. It is presented by three lovelies each does a segment. Marc Surer's wife does the driving segment and she is gorgeous. The other two are gorgeous as well. The girl that does all the mechanical segments actually does the work herself and is a model and wears, no we will not go down that path.
What more could you ask for?
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
GT-2

PS. In my searching I found some 1000 HP FWD drag cars in the USA. Sunfires whatever they are.

FSAEracer03

HAHAHA.. girls who drive well, work on their cars... that's a dream come true. Somebody pinch me! There are some like that over here too. One girl is a model who rallyes her WRX STi. She posted a picture of her underneath her car... I almost wet myself.

The sunfire is a Pontiac (hunk of..). I believe the car you saw was the top FWD drag car. It's now running with over 1200hp. Pretty wild stuff... but I'd watch a 4 second Top Fueler over it (and go deaf in the process) any day of the week

Blueman33

99% of race cars are RWD. Not 50%. RWD has no traction. Sure if you are talking about lambering along on a road the weight of the engine of a front heavy car might be a small factor in helping traction. BUT when you are accerlerating the weight shifts to the rear, leaving the drive wheel with less traction, not more. Even more pronounced in a balanced car like RX-8, 951, miata, etc. The worst of all worlds would be to put a FWD in a back weighted car like a 911, the front tires would just spin as you set there waiting for traction.

IMO, traction is why AWD is best, RWD is second, FWD is third. But besides my reasoning, they don't build many true performance cars FWD.