Dark Lightning

Ok, take this as it is: an honest question. This topic (click me) has me wondering about how Porsche owners tune their cars. Reworded, how do you expect to get the 'proper' performance from your 951?

By 'piggy-back' I mean APEXi S-AFC, LINK Tuning Module, etc.

Options #1 and #2 assume you'll only ever own that one Guru/Vitesse/etc. DME chip and you have no plans to change it.

Options #3 and #4 assume you personally believe you need a new Guru/Vitesse/etc. DME chip for every level of modifications. (new turbo, intake, etc.)

Option #5 assumes you run a piggy-back with the stock Porsche DME chip.

macnewma

I would say 95% of people have a Chip without PB. 4% have Chip + PB. The remainder have standalone.

If you have a Piggyback, a chip setup for PB (Vitesse), and a MAF size for your turbo/displacement, you would have to get a new chip and MAF if your new turbo/displacement is significantly larger. In other words, your MAF has an effective range and if your engine begins to operate outside of that range, you need a new MAF (or recalibrated) and a new chip that corresponds to the calibration (probably will need a remap, you might be able to fudge on that).

You would be able to forego this if we could get a MAP-based PB/chip to work reliably with the DME. So far, nobody has been able to do so. If you had the MAP-based PB/chip and you made a significant change, you would simply need to re-tune with your PB.

Are you getting at the fact that in the long run, a standalone might be worth the extra hassle up front? I am not sure this is true due to the greater overall complexity of a standalone vs. a chip vs. a chip/PB.

Max

OZ951

Max, I think that statement may be getting closer to the truth as the piggy back systems and chips evolve. However I recall thinking not so long ago that I would have been far better off installing a standalone at the outset and saved time, money and hassles in doing so. Of course you don't get to that point of understanding until you have been through the hassles of changing your mods and tuning several times over a period of time.

Jeremy Himsel

That's a hard question. Many guys out here start off with just a chip. Any die hard speed freak (like me) tends to mod again and again and again.....

Virtually everyone on this board started out with just a chip. Very few ever look at the long term goal. Mostly because they don't know what that is. Personally I don't think stand alone is worth the effort until you start looking at 400 RWHP or are going to pull it off the street. I'm at the point where I have a semi-custom chip and a piggy back with great flexability that will keep a smile on my face for a while. On another car, which will not be modded any time soon, I have just a chip that has a little bit of flexibility programmed into it that should be fine for a few years.

theedge

I have the chips in my sig now, but im fairly sure that once I start seriously modding my car one of the first big buys will be a good piggyback or standalone system, mainly because I dont want to get stuck in the cycle of buying chip after chip each time something changes...

fast951

We are working on a new generation MAF & Turbos.. Our goal is to provide a MAF with a curve broad enough to support both Stage1, Stage 2 and Stage 3. Our goal is to make it even simpler to customers that want to upgrade from one stage to the next. This should be released soon... At the same time we will be releasing the new generation Stage 2, 3, 4 and 5..

NZ951

I knew going into it that my timing and fuel needs would change a lot. One of my first mods was the stand alone.

macnewma

It all really comes down to your goals for the car. Unfortunately those goals change over time.

A standalone really gives you the ultimate clean palate. You can do virtually anything so long as you put your mind (and swiss bank account) to it then. It also means you are responsible for doing everything to make sure it works. Is that what you want out of the car? I am struggling with that right now.

Part of me says, just order a Vitesse Stg2 or a simple K27/6+chips and forget about it. The other part says, hey, go all out, get a TEC3/AEM/Hydra, it will be fun and you won't have to compromise.

As far as it being more economical, that is very difficult to know, even in hindsight. Tuning time, extra manhours for installation, more experimentation, more risk of destroying your engine, the list goes on...is it less expensive than remapping 3-4 times and retuning via the PB? I guess as they say, "Results may vary...and in a small subset of patients it may cause erectile dysfunction."

Max

rage2

I can't stress this enough. Buying a standalone is cheaper than buying a new motor. Piggybacks will ALWAYS have limitations as to what it can do. Standalone gives you full control of everything.

If anyone reading this is thinking of switching turbos and injectors in the future, buy a standalone with a wideband O2 sensor. And of course read rennlist, post and ask questions, and learn how to tune. Lots of us here are more than happy to lend a helping hand in teaching how to tune for safety and power.

porshhhh951

I have a piggyback fuel controller and timming adjustment tool with USB(although I currently don't touch it cause I dont have a wideband sensor yet or a lab top)

Dave lindsey used a wideband and tuned the car while mike drove it. Using the powerperfect and pro-m.


I do plan on getting a wideband and maybe even that new mo-editor from Vitesse when it comes out.

SamGrant951

My Vitesse Stage 2 MAF works/starts/drives flawlessly with my baby K26/6...just need to install the SMT6 and tune a bit...(have a Zeitronix logged A/F plot from the last time my car had wheels if anyone cares)

Dark Lightning

My question was aimed more at understanding the mindset of the Porsche owners, specifically how they view the 'right' way to mod their respective car(s).

I see threads where guys are talking about having to send their chips back in for reburning or tweaking 2, 3, or even 4 time to 'get it right', and I am simply amazed at the patience level required. It seemed to me quite a few guys in here rely exclusively on the chip to achieve their results: 1) get a chip 2) add a mod 3) repeat step 1 & 2.

95% of the modified cars I've worked follow a very basic proceedure: 1) get a chip 2) get a piggy-back 3) tune it yourself on the street/strip/track. It just didn't appear this philosophy was common on Rennlist.

*shrug*

porshhhh951

Hey dark why dont you look at your poll and I think you will see most of us do have a piggy back system of some sort. Not all of us repeat steps 1 and 2

The only reason I am going to have to have the car retuned again is because I am talking about a major upgrade(turbo,ect) and since I don't have a complete standalone the pro-m and power perfect while would get the car running good...it won't be as great as if I had it redone. Hence why I am. I don't see the cost benefit of doing a completely new standalong engine management system with a new harness ect because I am not trying for maxium hp and I don't plan on changing anything else major on the car in a long time. The mo-editor by Vitesse and a wideband sensor with readout are going to be about as far as I go in that direction.

Standalone's make it easy in some ways and hard in some ways. To some people they are really worth it and to some it isint. People who change something mayjor about they car often and are trying to squezze every little hp outta there engine...the standalone is perfect for.

Most of us are just trying for modest hp goals. The piggyback system's work great for us because they can get a car tuned pretty well when changing anything minor. Whatever turbo I do decide to go with will be on the car for years to come and I don't plan on building the motor or doing any sort of head work anymore(got a new project on the way) so for me the piggyback tunning system's still run off of the stock DME are perfect.

I hope this gives you a good idea of what most of us are kind of like. I also like you do not agree with having to ship out for chips 3 or 4 times. I also don't think many here have done that.....maybe there was a problem with the chip not being quite right or something so they have to keep trying. I plan on taking my car to the tuner itself, so this pretty much eliminates those types of problems for me. The car will be prefectly tuned and if I decide to change something down the road i have the tools to make minor adjustments to a already great map.

Black Arrow

John,
can you say anything more about this? Whats the different between the stage 2 and 3 today compared to the stage 2 and 3 your going to release sooner? And, when is sooner? Im just doing some research before buing a kit in the winter. (and the winter is just around now )

Best regards,
thomas

fast951

Both new turbos we will be using for Stage2 and Stage3 are designed for quick spoolup and stronger mid-range and top-end. The new turbos are more efficient than the exiting ones. Release date will be in a few weeks, both turbos are being tested today. As soon as the products are released, the website will be updated.