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I've casually shared updates about my $200K 1987 951 with you all before, and now I'm seeking your advice and opinions on some modifications I've made. The car was initially a track car by the previous owner but now I have been converting her to street use, featuring TB delete, Koni Turbo Cup double-adjustable front and rear shocks with Porsche part numbers, Weltmiester adjustable anti-sway bars, 225/45/17 and 255/40/17 tires, and Turbo S brakes. The previous owner had valved the shocks for 8-inch 700lbs fronts with spring helpers and 6-inch 900lbs rears with spring helpers, making the street ride quite harsh.
I also own a completely stock 1987 NA 944 with the original ride height and configuration. The only modification I've made is swapping out the wheels for 17-inch ones with Michelin PS AS 4 tires. Amazing how the tire tech helps these cars, While it tends to sway a bit, the grip on backroads and twisty routes is impressive. The 951 is a superior car, it should be be better than a 944 NA without reverting to stock, aiming for a slight improvement over the M030 configuration.
To enhance comfort, I've made some adjustments. I settled on 10-inch 225 lbs (no helper) -1 camber for the front and 9-inch 425 lbs (-2 camber) for the rear, both with no changes to valving yet, set at full soft top and bottom. With one inch of preload, the car now sits at 25 1/5 inches.
Now, here's my dilemma. I'm considering selling the Koni Turbo Cup shocks and buying KW V3s, using my springs. I'm unsure of the value of the Koni shocks? Maybe someone can tell? Alternatively, I could have Performance Shock Inc rebuild/restore them and have them valved for my setup (Street/Sport) at a cost of $2000. Or, I could go for the KWs at $3500. I'm curious about how much better the KWs would be on the street compared to custom-valved Koni Turbo Cups with my springs. I'm aiming for a great ride quality, Having experienced track setups on the street in the past, I'm now looking for a softer, sportier ride with the advancements in tire technology. Plus having Porsche turbo Cup Koni's is kind of cool to have on her.
Can you share a bit on what you mean by "koni turbo cup" suspension? The Turbo Cup cars used Bilstein suspension. The US Escort cars had Koni double adjustable suspension, so I'm guessing that's what you may have on the car. If you can post the part numbers for the front and rears, then it can be confirmed.
I would say that no matter how much they tailored those old Konis to be more suitable to the street, they're not going to be as good as the KWs. There's better technology in the KWs. The valving is quite trick in that when you're on very smooth surfaces it rides quite firm but when you hit corrugations or bumps, the valving has a release that softens virtually instantly. In my old car that was mostly street driven but was modified more and more as time progressed, I had KW '2 way race' (firmer valving than the V3s), similar springs to your old ones, all rubber bushings / bearings replaced with everything from Racer's Edge or Elephant Racing, 18" wheels with 30 series low profile semi slick (ie firmer sidewalls) tyres, Tarrett sway bars and whatever else...my point being is that I still drove this on the street without jarring my fillings out. By comparison I rode in other cars with Escort Cups or Konis from back in the day and they were noticeably harsher imho. Also, you will be able to run a spring and sway bar setup that removes some of the big side to side movement that you mentioned above. Without being too firm a ride. Cake and eat it time. I've also never heard anyone who switched to the KWs regret their decision.
I did get instructions from KW’s tech on how to disassemble the coilover – because it’s a little tricky & not obvious. 1) Spin the coilover down to take tension off the spring. 2) The top of the coilover DOES unscrew off, but it lock-tight’d and… 3) You’ll need a bench-vice or steel rod or some way to unscrew the top of the coilover WHILE holding the shaft in place with a strap wrench (or similar rod clamp). Grab the shaft (giggles) as high up as possible with the shaft wrench, and don’t scratch/gouge it, because doing so will destroy the seals.
Just wanted to share some updates on my Porsche journey. I've decided to part ways with my Koni Escort racing double adjustable front and rear coilovers and make the move to KW v3's, sporting a 700 lb front springs and 900 lb rear the koni's are custom valved for those springs - all for $1500. or best offer. This should help offset the cost of the new KW setup.
My plan is to swap out the KW 340 springs with a 6.7-inch measurement upfront, along with the 2.3-inch helper, totaling 9 inches. I'll be replacing them with a Hypercoil 225 lb 10-inch spring, sans helper spring. In the rear, the KW 285 springs (5.6 inches with a 2.3-inch helper) will make way for a Hypercoil 425 lb 9-inch spring, again without a helper spring. Remember, I have a TB delete 951—I'm all for simplicity. I also have adjustable sway bars front and rear to help fine tune it.
Targeting a preload of 1-1.5 inches, I'm aiming for a ride height of 25.5 - 26 inches. My goal is to capture that factory sport street feel of the M030 but with the modern damping of the KW v3's. This is strictly for street cruising with a GT feel—no track business. I know many of you would opt for stiffer spring rates, but for me, the math suggests I should be around 25% firmer than the stock M030 setup both front and rear. Another option is, go with the 300's in the front setup and go with 500's in the rear. or the standard setup of 340 front and 600's in the rear, I'm afraid that might to firm for what I'm trying to achieve. Either way my plan is set the KW's at full soft front and rear. Any thoughts, Patrick? Your expertise would be much appreciated.
Well my suggestion would be to buy whatever they sell the V3's with. Try them and then go from there. Many people have done so and been very happy. I don't see the helper as being a problem. I'd just go with what they suggest for our cars. You have the ability to make changes should you see fit.
I agree on starting out with the KW recommended spring rates.
The M030 springs are progressive rate springs and the KW are likely linear so it's not a one to one comparison.
Sorry, I think I misread something. Are you saying that you have removed the Torsion bars already? If not, I'd keep them and try the default springs supplied with the V3's. If you've already removed them then obviously you'll have to recalculate. Have you spoken with them for advice? I started out with T/bars and then removed them and upped the rear spring rates. This is about 15 years ago so I'm a bit foggy. I'll see if I recorded this somewhere. I no longer own the KWs though so I can't directly reference them.
I believe V3's are designed to run with torsions. And I thought you had to run the springs it comes with. Maybe that has changed. I don't really mess with 944's too much anymore. I don't like that spring combination in the V3 kit. Its like a 340 front with 285 rear helpers. But combined with the torsion bars that's only 246 effective. Its going to understeer more then stock. There is an entire math calculation used to configure the correct front to rear spring rate. Its not like a normal car. 944's have always been difficult to modify. It was never really designed to be modified like they have been.
I believe V3's are designed to run with torsions. And I thought you had to run the springs it comes with. Maybe that has changed. I don't really mess with 944's too much anymore. I don't like that spring combination in the V3 kit. Its like a 340 front with 285 rear helpers. But combined with the torsion bars that's only 246 effective. Its going to understeer more then stock. There is an entire math calculation used to configure the correct front to rear spring rate. Its not like a normal car. 944's have always been difficult to modify. It was never really designed to be modified like they have been.
While I agree that they may have been designed around retaining tbars, I don't think this rules out running all coil. Simple logic is that they have V3's for scores of other vehicles that don't run tbars. So I think they just allocate a rear spring in conjunction with the stock tb. While I had the 2 way race version, I don't believe there was a ton of difference, short of firmer valving and stiffer springs. My recollection was that they were semi custom depending on what size wheels, contact patch, tbars and intentions. So when I decided to remove the tb's we just recalculated a different rear spring and went from there. Didn't seem to hurt the overall balance. If I remember my old notes, I started with 628lb front and 706lb rear (spring & tb combined). As the car became more and more track oriented and when we pulled the tb's out, we upped the springs to 799lb front and 914lb rear. It was still road registered back then. However the car was getting faster and faster and I made the decision to get a cage installed. In Australia that pretty much means you can't drive it on the street. My old notes show the last incarnation of the car with the KWs had 1150lb front / 1370lb rear...but might be wrong. At some stage I switched to Motons and this might have been when we upped the springs to those rates. (They're now just under 1600lb per corner).
Also to note, there was often a bit of conjecture how to figure out actual motion and wheel rates. For any that are interested this may be a good thread to revisit. https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...llation-2.html
12-05-2023, 04:03 PM
KW V3 vs Koni Turbo cup custom valved, Better?
