Is the resale market for 951s softening?
05-22-2004, 04:03 AM
#31
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One of the things we're lacking here is the big picture view of the 951 used-car market. It's really hard for us to look at prices of 10-20 cars that have sold recently and try to come up with an "average" or BlueBook type figure of "worth". That's because we can't examine the figures on ALL 951s that have sold in the past year or more. The BlueBook guys don't have all the numbers, eBay doesn't have all the numbers, the Rennlist Classifieds don't have all the numbers. Even if we were to combine all three sources, we can't figure out what percentages of all 951s are sold through them. How many others are sold in various newspaper classifeds? How many are from word-of-mouth?
Then the other illusive figure is the actual selling price. The listed price in the ad is typically NOT the actual selling price. It's what the owner feels his car is "worth". Well, its real value will end up being what the next guy pays for it. But we don't have access to every sale price on every 951 either. So it's hard to come up with an analysis.
From my own experience, I looked for 9-months in 1997 up and down the entire State of California from San Francisco to San Diego. Prices ranged from $3900 to $18000 for a 951 and conditions were horrible to garage-queen pristine. The very best sample was an '86 951 with 90K-miles and was actually found in my own hometown. I bought it from the original owner for $7000.
Then in 2000, Kevin got dragged into the racing scene after watching me and Michael at Laguna Seca. So he went out and bought his own '86 951 (on left) for $5000:
It was in very good condition, just with worn out shocks and suspension. Those needed to be upgraded for racing anyway, so buying a car with worn-out parts that you're gonna be upgrading anyway makes sense.
A lot of times, we hope to see our cars listed at high asking prices. It's partly hope, pride and ego. But we gotta look at reality too. There's not a whole lot of buyers for these cars, compared to say... Honda Civics or Toyota Celicas. Then the 951 buyers typically aren't as affluent as 911 buyers, but the maintenance costs are probably about the same.
So now, you've got some kid buying his 1st car. He immediately dumps $3000 worth of stereo equipment and wheels into it. But little does he realize that a $1500 clutch job is just around the corner. The next month, it's another $800 to swap out A-arms because Hans & Frans specified plastic ball-joint cups. And after that, he can't afford the $500 timing-belt and water-pump replacement. Trying to stretch the belt-chang interval ends up with a snapped belt and bent valves. Faced with a looming $1500-2000 repair bill to fix the head, he's in dire straights as the next set of car- and insurance-payments come due. So what does he do? Well, he has to dump the car on the market and deduct $2000 from the price for the repairs... POW!!! That just dragged down the market-value for the rest of us...
Steve, don't sell your car, you'll regret it later !!! Send your wife down, I'll have a talk with her. I can get you a BMW or Mercedes at a really good deal for a daily driver.
Then the other illusive figure is the actual selling price. The listed price in the ad is typically NOT the actual selling price. It's what the owner feels his car is "worth". Well, its real value will end up being what the next guy pays for it. But we don't have access to every sale price on every 951 either. So it's hard to come up with an analysis.
From my own experience, I looked for 9-months in 1997 up and down the entire State of California from San Francisco to San Diego. Prices ranged from $3900 to $18000 for a 951 and conditions were horrible to garage-queen pristine. The very best sample was an '86 951 with 90K-miles and was actually found in my own hometown. I bought it from the original owner for $7000.
Then in 2000, Kevin got dragged into the racing scene after watching me and Michael at Laguna Seca. So he went out and bought his own '86 951 (on left) for $5000:
It was in very good condition, just with worn out shocks and suspension. Those needed to be upgraded for racing anyway, so buying a car with worn-out parts that you're gonna be upgrading anyway makes sense.
A lot of times, we hope to see our cars listed at high asking prices. It's partly hope, pride and ego. But we gotta look at reality too. There's not a whole lot of buyers for these cars, compared to say... Honda Civics or Toyota Celicas. Then the 951 buyers typically aren't as affluent as 911 buyers, but the maintenance costs are probably about the same.
So now, you've got some kid buying his 1st car. He immediately dumps $3000 worth of stereo equipment and wheels into it. But little does he realize that a $1500 clutch job is just around the corner. The next month, it's another $800 to swap out A-arms because Hans & Frans specified plastic ball-joint cups. And after that, he can't afford the $500 timing-belt and water-pump replacement. Trying to stretch the belt-chang interval ends up with a snapped belt and bent valves. Faced with a looming $1500-2000 repair bill to fix the head, he's in dire straights as the next set of car- and insurance-payments come due. So what does he do? Well, he has to dump the car on the market and deduct $2000 from the price for the repairs... POW!!! That just dragged down the market-value for the rest of us...
Steve, don't sell your car, you'll regret it later !!! Send your wife down, I'll have a talk with her. I can get you a BMW or Mercedes at a really good deal for a daily driver.
05-22-2004, 11:21 AM
#32
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Originally posted by Brett951
So, Cooper, I just sent email to the four Turbos that interest me in the classifieds... when do you think you'll decide on whether you want to sell? Still don't know if/when I'm buying (I know the bike would be cheaper) but 951s are just SO much fun...
So, Cooper, I just sent email to the four Turbos that interest me in the classifieds... when do you think you'll decide on whether you want to sell? Still don't know if/when I'm buying (I know the bike would be cheaper) but 951s are just SO much fun...
I don't know what I'm going to do yet. The 170 mile round trip commute 3 days a week is taking it's toll, whether I'm in the 951, or on the motorcycle. I'm not finished buttoning up the car since getting into the engine rebuild. Perhaps once I get it all back together I'll decide it's just too good to let go. Perhaps my wife will ligthen up on her no more cars stance... I should be able to wrap up the work over memorial day weekend (is that really how I'm supposed to spend that three day break?) . For now, I'm still undecided, and need to head up to a wedding at Point Arena just south of Mendocino today.
Originally posted by Danno
Steve, don't sell your car, you'll regret it later !!! Send your wife down, I'll have a talk with her. I can get you a BMW or Mercedes at a really good deal for a daily driver.
Steve, don't sell your car, you'll regret it later !!! Send your wife down, I'll have a talk with her. I can get you a BMW or Mercedes at a really good deal for a daily driver.
I've been looking at used E420/E430 alternatives to the new 300C, they just give me the ******* with their potential to do the exact same thing to me that you described in your first car buyer summary above. I'd bet that SB has a bunch of 'em for sale. I should talk to Fitzie as well, he might hear about some good values too. Perhaps that "would" be the lever that would sway Karen.
I'm more fickle than my wife in a show store when it comes to this issue. I know I'd regret it if I did sell. I still regret selling my old Pantera to buy a four door for reliable transportation in the late 80s.
Anyway, got to get the kids motivated for the 6 hour drive north.
Cheers until after the weekend! And thanks for all the feedback.
05-26-2004, 08:52 PM
#33
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Personal Update-
I don't think I'm going to need to sell the 951 afterall. Looks like a twist has happened that cuts me a little slack.
I've been on a search mission to find a reliable commuter car that would make my Santa Cruz to San Francisco trek less stressful. I had been looking at the stylish new Chrysler 300C, a V8 hemi engined, 340 hp four door with a mercedes designed 5 speed tiptronic-like transmission as the commuter vehicle. The problem with that ride? It's expensive enough to cause my wife to put her foot down and insist that if the 300 came into our lives the 951 had to go.
After doing some further research I found a funny little ride that would be great as a commuter, get awesome gas mileage, have some aftermarket potential and generate a bunch of grins along the way. Add to that- it's cheap enough so that my wife said she wouldn't mind if I kept the porsche.
So I'm ordering a Scion XB this week. 18" wheels. Leather interior. Silver. 18K out the door. A lunch box on wheels.
I'm thinking about getting this for a plate::
Like a clown funny?
Do I amuse you?
I don't think I'm going to need to sell the 951 afterall. Looks like a twist has happened that cuts me a little slack.
I've been on a search mission to find a reliable commuter car that would make my Santa Cruz to San Francisco trek less stressful. I had been looking at the stylish new Chrysler 300C, a V8 hemi engined, 340 hp four door with a mercedes designed 5 speed tiptronic-like transmission as the commuter vehicle. The problem with that ride? It's expensive enough to cause my wife to put her foot down and insist that if the 300 came into our lives the 951 had to go.
After doing some further research I found a funny little ride that would be great as a commuter, get awesome gas mileage, have some aftermarket potential and generate a bunch of grins along the way. Add to that- it's cheap enough so that my wife said she wouldn't mind if I kept the porsche.
So I'm ordering a Scion XB this week. 18" wheels. Leather interior. Silver. 18K out the door. A lunch box on wheels.
I'm thinking about getting this for a plate::
Like a clown funny?
Do I amuse you?
05-26-2004, 10:40 PM
#34
Nordschleife Master
I think your wife knows what she's up to.
In my family we have it worked out that the men make all the big decisions and the women look after the small ones.
So far there haven't been any big decisions.
In my family we have it worked out that the men make all the big decisions and the women look after the small ones.
So far there haven't been any big decisions.
05-27-2004, 11:23 AM
#35
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Originally posted by Peckster
I think your wife knows what she's up to.
In my family we have it worked out that the men make all the big decisions and the women look after the small ones.
So far there haven't been any big decisions.
I think your wife knows what she's up to.
In my family we have it worked out that the men make all the big decisions and the women look after the small ones.
So far there haven't been any big decisions.
05-27-2004, 12:00 PM
#36
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Originally posted by Steve Cooper
I've been on a search mission to find a reliable commuter car that would make my Santa Cruz to San Francisco trek less stressful. I had been looking at the stylish new Chrysler 300C, a V8 hemi engined, 340 hp four door with a mercedes designed 5 speed tiptronic-like transmission as the commuter vehicle. The problem with that ride? It's expensive enough to cause my wife to put her foot down and insist that if the 300 came into our lives the 951 had to go.
I've been on a search mission to find a reliable commuter car that would make my Santa Cruz to San Francisco trek less stressful. I had been looking at the stylish new Chrysler 300C, a V8 hemi engined, 340 hp four door with a mercedes designed 5 speed tiptronic-like transmission as the commuter vehicle. The problem with that ride? It's expensive enough to cause my wife to put her foot down and insist that if the 300 came into our lives the 951 had to go.
05-27-2004, 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by slim_boy_fat
Commuter car.... Don’t make me laugh. The sooner you Americans get a grip on the real value of petrol the better. Maybe its about time the US government hicks the tax up to same as UK levels. After all the polluter pays is a pretty good principle don’t you think. Come on guys time to take a global view of things, we all need to do our wee bit.
Commuter car.... Don’t make me laugh. The sooner you Americans get a grip on the real value of petrol the better. Maybe its about time the US government hicks the tax up to same as UK levels. After all the polluter pays is a pretty good principle don’t you think. Come on guys time to take a global view of things, we all need to do our wee bit.
OTOH, the little Scion xB I'm ordering does go to the other end of the spectrum. A true econo-Box. 35 miles per gallon. Small 4 cylinder. Lightweight but still seats four.
As for US gas prices, they pay less than 50cents per gallon in Venezuela. and it's 50 cents a gallon in Egypt. And other parts of the middle east are making waves with talks of $1.00/gallon prices. I guess that oil producers have always had lower priced gas, so their perspectives are skewed. We certainly do import a lot of oil in the US, but we also produce a lot of oil too.
Cheers!
05-27-2004, 04:06 PM
#38
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Originally posted by richbob
I've been looking all over, semi-seriously, for a nice 951, for about 5 months, and here are a few observations I have on the market. Probably most are fairly obvious, but WTF, take them for what their worth:
1. 1986 951s are, by far, the most plentiful, and rarely go for over $8K. In fact, that seems to be the magic number - anything over $8K, and you're probably talking a VLM car - Very Low Miles.
2. Unless its a VLM, mods seem to increase the value, though nowhere near what the mods cost. Just look at what Carter got for his heavily-modified 'Beast'.
3. Leaks are a killer - any mention, and you can forget the $8K.
4. The more pictures with the ad, the better: its irritating to have to ask for more pictures.
5. Its even more irritating when the owner doesn't respond to inquiries. If you're serious about selling, be serious about responding to any inquiries.
6. eBay seems to be the best indicator of where the market is. As they say, something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
I've been looking all over, semi-seriously, for a nice 951, for about 5 months, and here are a few observations I have on the market. Probably most are fairly obvious, but WTF, take them for what their worth:
1. 1986 951s are, by far, the most plentiful, and rarely go for over $8K. In fact, that seems to be the magic number - anything over $8K, and you're probably talking a VLM car - Very Low Miles.
2. Unless its a VLM, mods seem to increase the value, though nowhere near what the mods cost. Just look at what Carter got for his heavily-modified 'Beast'.
3. Leaks are a killer - any mention, and you can forget the $8K.
4. The more pictures with the ad, the better: its irritating to have to ask for more pictures.
5. Its even more irritating when the owner doesn't respond to inquiries. If you're serious about selling, be serious about responding to any inquiries.
6. eBay seems to be the best indicator of where the market is. As they say, something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
My recommendation is if you don't have to sell, and don't really know if you want to sell...Don't
05-28-2004, 06:04 AM
#39
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Originally posted by Steve Cooper
OTOH, the little Scion xB I'm ordering does go to the other end of the spectrum. A true econo-Box. 35 miles per gallon. Small 4 cylinder. Lightweight but still seats four.
As for US gas prices, they pay less than 50cents per gallon in Venezuela. and it's 50 cents a gallon in Egypt. And other parts of the middle east are making waves with talks of $1.00/gallon prices. I guess that oil producers have always had lower priced gas, so their perspectives are skewed. We certainly do import a lot of oil in the US, but we also produce a lot of oil too.
Cheers!
OTOH, the little Scion xB I'm ordering does go to the other end of the spectrum. A true econo-Box. 35 miles per gallon. Small 4 cylinder. Lightweight but still seats four.
As for US gas prices, they pay less than 50cents per gallon in Venezuela. and it's 50 cents a gallon in Egypt. And other parts of the middle east are making waves with talks of $1.00/gallon prices. I guess that oil producers have always had lower priced gas, so their perspectives are skewed. We certainly do import a lot of oil in the US, but we also produce a lot of oil too.
Cheers!
As for Venezuela and Egypt, sorry but thats completely irrelevant givin the amout of oil that is used in these contries compared to the US. USA is the biggest comsumer of natural resources bigger than the rest of the world put together.
<Rant mode off>
05-28-2004, 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by slim_boy_fat
Ecco box 35mpg dont make me laugh. I have a 9 year old VW Golf TDI that does 55mpg, perfectly nice car to drive for extended periods got all the toys. Sorry but you need a total mind shift in America to what an ecconomic car actually is. As usual Europe has to take the lead in technology and scocial responsibility.
As for Venezuela and Egypt, sorry but thats completely irrelevant givin the amout of oil that is used in these contries compared to the US. USA is the biggest comsumer of natural resources bigger than the rest of the world put together.
<Rant mode off>
Ecco box 35mpg dont make me laugh. I have a 9 year old VW Golf TDI that does 55mpg, perfectly nice car to drive for extended periods got all the toys. Sorry but you need a total mind shift in America to what an ecconomic car actually is. As usual Europe has to take the lead in technology and scocial responsibility.
As for Venezuela and Egypt, sorry but thats completely irrelevant givin the amout of oil that is used in these contries compared to the US. USA is the biggest comsumer of natural resources bigger than the rest of the world put together.
<Rant mode off>
05-28-2004, 12:41 PM
#41
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Originally posted by Steve Cooper
On behalf of the entire country, I apologize. I'll do my best to turn the place around. If you have any other ideas, please feel free to send them along.
On behalf of the entire country, I apologize. I'll do my best to turn the place around. If you have any other ideas, please feel free to send them along.
Having lived extensively in both USA and Europe I must say fatboyslim has a point.
Either way I was actually more interested in the original discussion on the resale market for 951s....(consideirng acquiriing another one...)
05-28-2004, 01:02 PM
#42
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Originally posted by Swedeboy
Having lived extensively in both USA and Europe I must say fatboyslim has a point.
Having lived extensively in both USA and Europe I must say fatboyslim has a point.
I've been traveling extensively in Europe for business, was on the board of a company in Tuebingen Germany and on another in Dublin, Ireland and have seen first hand how wickedly cool Smart Cars are, how efficient 1 liter Peugot TDIs are, and have lusted after a number of the cool small gas and diesel sipping cars I saw there.
But if europe paid the same prices for gas as we do, I bet they'd be buying a lot more of really big engined audis, bimmers, benzes, and veedubs that are being sold in the US. That said I think it's going to slowly shift to a more responsible mindset here with gas prices motivating lots more people to think aboiut the living room economic realities of expensive fuel.
Originally posted by Swedeboy
Either way I was actually more interested in the original discussion on the resale market for 951s....(consideirng acquiriing another one...)
Either way I was actually more interested in the original discussion on the resale market for 951s....(consideirng acquiriing another one...)
05-28-2004, 01:30 PM
#43
I never notice, anyway
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back on the topic, take it this way: my car listed for $8450 at the dealer. as soon as he found out that it had a salvage title, he dropped a grand. the car was insanely beautiful, and the drops on the ground, he explained, was water from having just washed it. so i paid $7450. i had to do a ton of work on it to get it in a condition in which i didnt have to worry about it. as much. but i still do. i have spent $9500 to date. my lein-holder wants me to sell. but im maybe gonna get $5,000 out of her, $6,000 would be wishful thinking. so why take a $4500 hit, just to have to go spend another $9000 on a vehicle that i wont love NEAR as much as my baby. that's a $13,500 investment, with $4,000 more into the car, itd be so much more worth it to have the car.
yes, i was duped by my dealer. but, the market is really soft for those cars that arent in superb condition (like mine).
yes, i was duped by my dealer. but, the market is really soft for those cars that arent in superb condition (like mine).
05-29-2004, 08:10 AM
#44
Burning Brakes
Ouch - I wouldn't wish 75%+ fuel tax on anyone- we have the cheapest raw fuel in europe (we have a bit of oil ourselves) but I believe the most expensive pump fuel. There is a lot of rubbish talked about environmental damage and climate change. And don't get me started on the £47billion we contribute in motoring taxes to the 5 billion spend on roads especially when rail is subsidised to the tune of 7 billion a year - waste of money dig up the rails and lay some tarmac.
But back on topic, I think the poorly maintained buy - sell when breaking is harming the cars value. However a good well maintained vehicle will find an enthusiast eventually. The long term has to be good for the well loved ones as the overall number of 951's decreases.
Tony
But back on topic, I think the poorly maintained buy - sell when breaking is harming the cars value. However a good well maintained vehicle will find an enthusiast eventually. The long term has to be good for the well loved ones as the overall number of 951's decreases.
Tony
05-29-2004, 06:58 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
In fact its not 75% tax its 75% of the total price is tax so for every $1 roughy 75c is tax - not nice. Slim the government wont thankyou for driving a diesel golf they want your money!
Tony
Tony