Tony, As I stated.. The sleeve was for race engine #404, the sleeve was designed to be used on race engines... Race parts could not be ordered through the dealer because they were race parts... They were not called race parts because the dealer didn't sell them...

 

The context of these words is a thread (vogel's) where you take the postion that utilizing sleeving designs similar to hondas (ostensibly built for drag racing) is a bad idea and the design won't hold up to track/road racing use. Then fast951 posts a pic of a somewhat similar sleeve design that was engineered for TRACK use and you take the position that it's frail and needs lots of maintenance. Hence my question, "is a race only engine stong or not?" You state that it needs to be (strong), but then say that an engine built specifically for track racing (the conditions that you picked to define what constitutes a strong motor) isn't going to hold up to the intended use. Make up your mind. As far as requiring frequent teardowns, what does tearing it apart regularly accomplish in terms of making it last (if it's not a "strong" design)? Nothing. Either it does or it doesn't last through the race. Taking it apart only allows you to make an educated guess about whether it'll last the next race.

As far as a NASCAR engine lasting for 100,000 miles in the Griswald family truckster I'd have to put my money on it lasting at least that long. What's going to end it's life prematurely? Do you think it'll spend a lot of time over 7500 rpms and at extreme temps? Not likely. It won't idle very nicely though.

Is a race motor strong? Hell yes.

fast951,
Do you think you'll get pics of the head?

 

I think track use pushes the engine to its limits. If it survives track hours, then it'll survive street use. Now track cars have extras builtin to handle the extra stress, larger oil coolers, more frequent oil and fluid changes...
Someone estimated that every 1 track mile (under race conditions) is similar to 1000 street miles.
On the street you get away with plenty, on the track you must have everything top-notch.
Some race engines are designed to be torn down every x number of hours. But that does not mean they are not strong.

I'm working on getting a picture of the head. It's not mine and I need to get up with the owner.

 

The Nascar engine will probably break the valvesprings and wear down the camshaft long before 100,000 miles. The bearings may also take a beating during the repeated cold starts if the Griswolds doesn't learn to cycle the engine with the ignition off before starting.

With a few exeptions most race engine parts should be stronger and at least last sa long as stock parts in a street driven car. As Fast951 is saying, a track mile equals many street miles. The one thing a race engine doesn't have to cope with is repeated start and stops. Both the heat cycling and cold starting without oil pressure stresses the engine.

With this said I don't see whe this sleeve should be any weaker than the stock design. It's funny, all of a sudden our engines ain't worth nothing without a deck plate, no matter how well they worked a month ago!

Tomas

 

>>>It's funny, all of a sudden our engines ain't worth nothing without a deck plate, no matter how well they worked a month ago!<<<

 

Tomas L

>>>With this said I don't see whe this sleeve should be any weaker than the stock design. It's funny, all of a sudden our engines ain't worth nothing without a deck plate, no matter how well they worked a month ago!<<<

That's a mixed statement. You mean a wet sleeve or a dry sleeve? Big difference.

A dry sleeve can be done w/o the deck plate with no problems because there is a lot of material supporting the sleeve that is part of the block.

A wet sleeve eliminates all the material up top where the loads are the greatest (at least in the 951 block).

The setup Vogel is doing is a wet sleeve, and because of the lack of material left to support the sleeve, I made the comments about the use of a deck plate.

TonyG

 

The comments about the race only parts were not focused on their strength.

The issue is durability for repeated hot/cold cycles, the clearances required for a race engine, piston skirt designs, repeated expansion/contraction, and many many more issues which hold true for real race parts, etc...

A Nascar engine wouldn't last long in normal driving for many reasons, yet it is very strong.

TonyG

 

Russ Murphy

>>>The context of these words is a thread (vogel's) where you take the postion that utilizing sleeving designs similar to hondas (ostensibly built for drag racing) is a bad idea and the design won't hold up to track/road racing use. <<<

And it probably wouldn't hold up to occasional club racing either.


>>>Then fast951 posts a pic of a somewhat similar sleeve design that was engineered for TRACK use and you take the position that it's frail and needs lots of maintenance. Hence my question, "is a race only engine stong or not?"


Strength is one thing. And yes the sleeves themselves are probably very strong. But I'm sure it is no more or no less strong than any other aftermarket sleeve available.

But reliable for an everyday engine, installed wet, with zero of the top bore available to support it? That's a different issue altogether, that has zero to do with strength of the sleeve.


In the case of the sleeve that Fast951 posted, you are now talking about a sleeve that was used by the factory Porsche race team (guessing... but probably true). And if that's the case, you can be assured that those engines were pulled apart and inspected each season or more often (probably a lot more often). Furthermore, you can also bet that Porsche didn't simply bore out the stock cylinder, eliminate all the supporting material, and stick the sleeve in.

Show me a picture of that sleeve installed, and you'll see a block that nowhere near resembles a stock setup.


>>>You state that it needs to be (strong), but then say that an engine built specifically for track racing (the conditions that you picked to define what constitutes a strong motor) isn't going to hold up to the intended use. <<<

Obviously it needs to be strong. That's a no brainer. But true race engines are not built to withstand everyday driving, or even occational track use mixed with everyday driving.


>>>Make up your mind. As far as requiring frequent teardowns, what does tearing it apart regularly accomplish in terms of making it last (if it's not a "strong" design)? Nothing.

Tell that to the professional race teams. They must have been spending a ton of money each season for no reason. Imagine that.

To answer the question, the engines are torn down to find the parts that are "about to fail" or are no longer in tolerance, and replaced.

Look at the replacement schedule for a GT2 or GT3 that's being raced. Look at the factory recomendations on how long (hours) specific parts are allowed to be used. You'll be quite surprised.


>>>Either it does or it doesn't last through the race. <<<

Obviously


>>>Taking it apart only allows you to make an educated guess about whether it'll last the next race.<<<


Tell that to Porsche (or any other professional race team).

Even Porsche knows full well that their race parts, which are available from the factory BTW, will fail within a given time frame (which isn't long), and require replacement after x amount of hours failure of the part notwithstanding.

Bone up on it, then come back and we'll argue some more.


The race engines are very strong. But they are not reliable.


tonyG

 

fast951


>>>Race parts could not be ordered through the dealer because they were race parts...<<<

Not true.


TonyG

 

Tony, As always you know best. I'm sure you know more than the mechanic that worked for the factory and who owns the sleeve now.

Since what I said is not true, go ahead and get the part number for the sleeve I would like to order few of them. And while at it how about a part number and a place to order a block that accepts the above sleeve..

 

fast951

>>>Tony, As always you know best. I'm sure you know more than the mechanic that worked for the factory and who owns the sleeve now. <<<

Ok. You got me with that statement. I guess you showed me....

Since you have a factory Porsche mechanic in your pocket, ask him if buyers of a GT2/GT3 can buy race only parts. Maybe he can enlighten you.


>>>Since what I said is not true, go ahead and get the part number for the sleeve I would like to order few of them. And while at it how about a part number and a place to order a block that accepts the above sleeve..<<<

Sure thing. I'll see if my contacts can get me 15+ year old parts. I'll jump right on it. I'm sure there's plenty of stock available. Oh... that's right... I can't get it because it's a race only part. Damn...

You showed me again...

I loose. You win. Go take that high HP car of yours and bore out the cylinder liners so there there's no more material for support on the upper 1/2, and install a set of wet sleeves with no deck plate. Then take one of your stage 3 kits that promises 450RWHP on a 2.5L (you know the one... the turbo, MAF, signal tweaker, and chips on an otherwise stock engine all for the low low price of $3200 plus the cost of injectors) and bolt it on and show me wrong. I bet you would have a 500RWHP engine!

Send us a video of Vitesse Racing in action! (you race don't you?)

What are you waiting for?

TonyG

 

These discussions are ridiculous guys.

Sam

 

Tony, discussing anything with you is a total waste of time... You twist things at will. As always, you think you know it all! Whatever makes you happy.........

 

Fast951

I know enough to call BULL **** when I hear it. And some of it has gone on for far too long....

TonyG

 

Tony, what's up? Did you forget to take your Prozac because you're coming across somewhat obsessive compulsive here.......

Is it remotely possible to have a reasonable discussion on the board without it turning into this ****? I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that some manufacturers limit the availability of certain "Race Only" parts to factory sponsored race teams. Ford and Dodge have been doing this for years now and even limit parts for some of their production stuff. Try to walk into a Ford dealership and try to buy Mystic paint for a Cobra without a title.