911 guy needs a new toy
02-15-2019, 07:42 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
I have a 1989 951 and until a month ago a 1987 911 Coupe, love(d) both, completely different, as I'd guess everyone knows. I believe the 951 got the short straw because of the early 924 and 944 models (VW stuff, etc.), kind of soiled the discussion. Let's remember the 951 we drive ('88S and '89) were based on Porsche Cup cars (racers), cars with upgraded engines, turbos, suspensions, and more. Great balance, great engineering, a blast to drive. Apologies for lacking a specific reference: back in the day, the '80's, the Porsche marketing guys drove 911's, the engineers drove 951's. No offense to marketing guys, I'm a former marketing guy. My opinion, don't buy a modded car, buy the best pristine clean example you can find, this will require a national level search. Get into the original feel and experience then decide if you want mods, then if so they will be your own.
02-15-2019, 11:45 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
grgallo, why did you recently sell your 911?
A clean, unmodded, well-maintained car is what I want, but from what I've gathered so far, it seems like there may not be many of those to choose from.
A clean, unmodded, well-maintained car is what I want, but from what I've gathered so far, it seems like there may not be many of those to choose from.
02-15-2019, 11:46 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Understand those sentiments of keeping things stock. Maybe try driving a stock car and a modded car. The stock cars feel pretty much a slice of yesteryear.
Conversely when someone spends a good deal of time and money modifying a car and setting it up (if you find a really well done version of this) then you usually save a lot of your own time and money as we can never sell these for what they cost to put together.
Some better suspension, a better exhaust system, say a Vitesse kit ( https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...nter-sale.html ) and you've got a really great little car.
Conversely when someone spends a good deal of time and money modifying a car and setting it up (if you find a really well done version of this) then you usually save a lot of your own time and money as we can never sell these for what they cost to put together.
Some better suspension, a better exhaust system, say a Vitesse kit ( https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...nter-sale.html ) and you've got a really great little car.
02-16-2019, 01:04 AM
#19
Rennlist Member
951's are just asking to be modified and done sensibly it improves the driving experience immensely. My current air cooled is a 993tt, 3.8L conversion, big turbos, PSS9's, A048 tires, RWD only. My lightly modded 951 holds it's own against this. Don't be scared of a lightly modified 951 if done well.
02-19-2019, 07:41 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
And yes a clean unmodded well maintained 951 is almost a unicorn
02-27-2019, 01:09 AM
#21
I'll never give up my air cooled 911 but after 15 years of owning various ones (and a 928), I hanker for something new. I've always like the 944 but have never been in one. I think I might want to buy one, but I have some questions for those of you who own, or have owned, both. I'll do some learning before I get serious about finding one.
1. How would you compare the driving experience? I know the 944 is better balanced than the 911, but is it as much fun to drive as an air cooled 911? Exciting? Can you hear the engine and/or exhaust?
I have driven older air cooled 911's and had a 996 Turbo. The 944 Turbo is closer to the 996 than the air cooled cars. More of a GT car for sure. Fun to drive is a subjective thing. It won't feel as light as the 911 but will have a bunch more torque due to the turbo. Lag is there but that can be part of the fun. Because of the torsion bar suspension the car really squats in the back giving you the sensation of being shot out of a cannon. You will find yourself always wanting to be in boost. The other thing is the 944 has underhung pedals like a modern car while the 911 has floor hinged pedals. Never got used to the floor hinged pedals and was always pushing them in the wrong place to get proper engagement. As for the engine and exhaust noise, the 911 has one up on it there. A four cylinder can sound OK but will never replace the wail of a flat six.
2. Are there some easy mods to the turbo cars, like a performance chip? Can boost be increased via wastegate spring or other method? Are there good exhaust options out there?
Lots of easy mods and plenty of vendors. One of the early mods was an autothority chipset that came with a restrictor on the signal to the wastegate. Basically the package increased boost levels and fuel/timing. Was good for an extra bit of power from the stock turbo. The Turbo S and 1989+ models had a bigger turbo capable of a little more power. It's been a while since I was immersed in 951 mods but believe there are other vendors of chips for the stock ECU (Vitesse, Lindsey, etc.) A lot of options for exhausts too as with turbo cars generally the bigger and less restrictive the better. Stainless systems are common. Emission regulations may play a part in what exhaust you are allowed to get.
3. Belt service. How often and how much does it typically cost? Is it significantly more for a turbo vs. NA?
Belts are of the VW variety and the same for Turbo or NA. Usually involves changing water pump and tensioners/rollers. Not hard to do and are easy to get to. Engine is an interference design so important to make sure belts are done regularily. As for cost, it's been a while but I think the job was $1500-$2000 at an independent shop.
4. Are they easy to work on yourself? Harder or easier than a 911?
I would guess easier than working on a 911 but it probably depends on what you are doing. I did the turbo on the 951 myself and it was pretty straight forward but took some time. I've never tried a clutch replacement but I know the book rate is around 18 hours for the job. The cliff notes say you basically disassemble car, change clutch and then reassemble car. Clutches on 968's are supposedly easier. Basic things like spark plugs are way easier on the 951. Working on a 911 with the engine in reminds me of practicing dentistry if your only access was the anus. Much more room in the engine bay of a 951. Clarks Garage had/has some really good write ups for DIY guys. Lots of guys here work on their cars themselves and I know of a couple guys who have never built an engine prior to building the one in the 951.
Thanks!
1. How would you compare the driving experience? I know the 944 is better balanced than the 911, but is it as much fun to drive as an air cooled 911? Exciting? Can you hear the engine and/or exhaust?
I have driven older air cooled 911's and had a 996 Turbo. The 944 Turbo is closer to the 996 than the air cooled cars. More of a GT car for sure. Fun to drive is a subjective thing. It won't feel as light as the 911 but will have a bunch more torque due to the turbo. Lag is there but that can be part of the fun. Because of the torsion bar suspension the car really squats in the back giving you the sensation of being shot out of a cannon. You will find yourself always wanting to be in boost. The other thing is the 944 has underhung pedals like a modern car while the 911 has floor hinged pedals. Never got used to the floor hinged pedals and was always pushing them in the wrong place to get proper engagement. As for the engine and exhaust noise, the 911 has one up on it there. A four cylinder can sound OK but will never replace the wail of a flat six.
2. Are there some easy mods to the turbo cars, like a performance chip? Can boost be increased via wastegate spring or other method? Are there good exhaust options out there?
Lots of easy mods and plenty of vendors. One of the early mods was an autothority chipset that came with a restrictor on the signal to the wastegate. Basically the package increased boost levels and fuel/timing. Was good for an extra bit of power from the stock turbo. The Turbo S and 1989+ models had a bigger turbo capable of a little more power. It's been a while since I was immersed in 951 mods but believe there are other vendors of chips for the stock ECU (Vitesse, Lindsey, etc.) A lot of options for exhausts too as with turbo cars generally the bigger and less restrictive the better. Stainless systems are common. Emission regulations may play a part in what exhaust you are allowed to get.
3. Belt service. How often and how much does it typically cost? Is it significantly more for a turbo vs. NA?
Belts are of the VW variety and the same for Turbo or NA. Usually involves changing water pump and tensioners/rollers. Not hard to do and are easy to get to. Engine is an interference design so important to make sure belts are done regularily. As for cost, it's been a while but I think the job was $1500-$2000 at an independent shop.
4. Are they easy to work on yourself? Harder or easier than a 911?
I would guess easier than working on a 911 but it probably depends on what you are doing. I did the turbo on the 951 myself and it was pretty straight forward but took some time. I've never tried a clutch replacement but I know the book rate is around 18 hours for the job. The cliff notes say you basically disassemble car, change clutch and then reassemble car. Clutches on 968's are supposedly easier. Basic things like spark plugs are way easier on the 951. Working on a 911 with the engine in reminds me of practicing dentistry if your only access was the anus. Much more room in the engine bay of a 951. Clarks Garage had/has some really good write ups for DIY guys. Lots of guys here work on their cars themselves and I know of a couple guys who have never built an engine prior to building the one in the 951.
Thanks!
02-27-2019, 01:25 AM
#22
02-27-2019, 11:39 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Great info, Soloracer. That Clark's Garage site is a remarkable resource. I'm actually glad to hear about the driving differences between the 911 and 951. I wouldn't need two cars that give me the same thing. I loved my 928 for its GT character and it was a great complement to the 911.
Thanks to all for the responses! I haven't read anything yet to deter me from 944 ownership, and I can see one in my future, though I need to sell one of my other cars first to make room.
Thanks to all for the responses! I haven't read anything yet to deter me from 944 ownership, and I can see one in my future, though I need to sell one of my other cars first to make room.
03-10-2019, 12:11 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Okay, help me focus. I'm going to use the 944 for canyon carving in the mountains west of Denver. I'll be spending almost all of the time between 7,000 and 10,000 feet. Since engines lose about 3% of their horsepower for every 1,000 feet above sea level, my car's HP will be down as much as 30% up there. And occasionally I'll be up even higher, around 12,000 ft. So these facts would seem to favor the turbo, agreed? Turbos don't lose much HP at altitude. But when I'm off boost, it'll be even worse than usual. Can you stay on boost (and on the road) when canyon carving in a 951 within a speed range of 30-50 MPH?
But then there's turbo lag. Some people have remarked that they actually like it, but I don't think I would. I like cars that are responsive and zippy. When I mash the throttle, I want to go like a scalded cat. But I know no 944 is going to provide that (no 911 other than a GT3 will do that either), but from my reading I understand that the lag in a 951 can be largely mitigated with a MAF kit, chip set and exhaust. If so, I could be happy with that.
Then there's the speed thing. Going fast can be fun. Fast on a track is fun. I did that for years in various 911's. But I'm kind of over that now and I prefer a spirited but relaxing drive.
I already know what you're going to say....get an S2, right? Is an S2 that much better than a MAF'd and chipped 951? There are tons of 951's out there to choose from but not many S2 coupes. And any 944 I buy MUST be black. Fortunately there are a few black ones out there in the vast sea of red ones but I've yet to see an S2 coupe in black.
Should I get a Cayman instead?
But then there's turbo lag. Some people have remarked that they actually like it, but I don't think I would. I like cars that are responsive and zippy. When I mash the throttle, I want to go like a scalded cat. But I know no 944 is going to provide that (no 911 other than a GT3 will do that either), but from my reading I understand that the lag in a 951 can be largely mitigated with a MAF kit, chip set and exhaust. If so, I could be happy with that.
Then there's the speed thing. Going fast can be fun. Fast on a track is fun. I did that for years in various 911's. But I'm kind of over that now and I prefer a spirited but relaxing drive.
I already know what you're going to say....get an S2, right? Is an S2 that much better than a MAF'd and chipped 951? There are tons of 951's out there to choose from but not many S2 coupes. And any 944 I buy MUST be black. Fortunately there are a few black ones out there in the vast sea of red ones but I've yet to see an S2 coupe in black.
Should I get a Cayman instead?
03-10-2019, 01:51 AM
#25
Three Wheelin'
If your in the right gear there is no turbo lag. Maybe a fellow lister in Denver with a 951 can let you one. S2's have nice low end torque but the 951 to me has a more fun factor when boost kicks on
03-10-2019, 09:08 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
I have two Turbos. 951 and 996. Different cars, different driving. The 996 is a stable car with power to go straight faster. The 951 is a beast when done correctly. I am a very mechanical guy, give me a steering wheel and a 5 speed and that is all I need. When I feel insane the 951 comes out, when I go with my buds in there caymen, 911 type cars, I take the 996. The 951 hits turns so much better for me, and I love the blast of power it gives. The 996 is a more controlled car, not as insane, more of a steady acceleration. It is all in how I feel that day as to which car comes out. The way I see it, both are great, I can drive in the heat all day without issues. Here is the main difference. The 951 is a rough car, where you race it and come home and drive another. The 996, you can race it all day and take the wife to dinner at night in it.
03-10-2019, 12:50 PM
#27
Racer
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Encinitas, ca PCA National DE instructor PCA San Diego chief driving instructor
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I have an '86 951 that is extremely clean, all maintenance up to date, un modded, and black/black. It is in southern California. I'm a very meticulous owner, long time PCA member and race an '89 951. The '86 is my "concours" car. I own seven cars and need room.
PM me if you are interested.
PM me if you are interested.
