Swinging pickup for oil pan
06-23-2018, 01:11 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Swinging pickup for oil pan
I am finally getting ready to assemble my 2.85 hybrid build and was looking at some oil system upgrades. I am already planning a 23 row cooler setup similar to Lindsey 3x and a crank scraper and baffle kit.
I was considering the benefit of a swinging pickup tube and making a sheet metal oil pan with integrated windage screen and scraper. This seems unusual coming from a cast aluminum pan but my thought was ability to add a kick out and change some pan design for road race/extended hpde usage.
What are your thoughts on a completely new oil pan design versus adding the baffle and scrapers per norm?
As a side note, are aftermarket pans acceptable for PCA events? I would like to hear some thoughts from your experiences and brainstorming.
Steve
I was considering the benefit of a swinging pickup tube and making a sheet metal oil pan with integrated windage screen and scraper. This seems unusual coming from a cast aluminum pan but my thought was ability to add a kick out and change some pan design for road race/extended hpde usage.
What are your thoughts on a completely new oil pan design versus adding the baffle and scrapers per norm?
As a side note, are aftermarket pans acceptable for PCA events? I would like to hear some thoughts from your experiences and brainstorming.
Steve
06-23-2018, 03:28 PM
#2
Race Car
By "acceptable for PCA events" do you mean will they allow it on track in a DE or race environment, well, then the answer is yes....as long as it's not an obvious hazard.
Controversial I guess but I don't use a scraper and don't see any benefit in one....., the screen windage tray maybe, raced engines with and without reliably.
The stock pan is not hard to modify if you can weld aluminum so I don't see any reason to make one out of steel....., and the thickness that steel would have to equal the rigidity of the aluminum pan would be pretty substantial in additional weight.
re. swinging pickup tube....., uhm, no experience there, I see the concept but don't think it's a practical and/or necessary solution.
T
Controversial I guess but I don't use a scraper and don't see any benefit in one....., the screen windage tray maybe, raced engines with and without reliably.
The stock pan is not hard to modify if you can weld aluminum so I don't see any reason to make one out of steel....., and the thickness that steel would have to equal the rigidity of the aluminum pan would be pretty substantial in additional weight.
re. swinging pickup tube....., uhm, no experience there, I see the concept but don't think it's a practical and/or necessary solution.
T
06-23-2018, 04:06 PM
#3
Instructor
Thread Starter
By "acceptable for PCA events" do you mean will they allow it on track in a DE or race environment, well, then the answer is yes....as long as it's not an obvious hazard.
Controversial I guess but I don't use a scraper and don't see any benefit in one....., the screen windage tray maybe, raced engines with and without reliably.
The stock pan is not hard to modify if you can weld aluminum so I don't see any reason to make one out of steel....., and the thickness that steel would have to equal the rigidity of the aluminum pan would be pretty substantial in additional weight.
re. swinging pickup tube....., uhm, no experience there, I see the concept but don't think it's a practical and/or necessary solution.
T
Controversial I guess but I don't use a scraper and don't see any benefit in one....., the screen windage tray maybe, raced engines with and without reliably.
The stock pan is not hard to modify if you can weld aluminum so I don't see any reason to make one out of steel....., and the thickness that steel would have to equal the rigidity of the aluminum pan would be pretty substantial in additional weight.
re. swinging pickup tube....., uhm, no experience there, I see the concept but don't think it's a practical and/or necessary solution.
T
06-23-2018, 06:33 PM
#4
Race Car
Thanks T for your insight. I didn't really consider modifying the stock pan sump area. I know there is some fitment concerns, but the idea would be to widen the pan around the right rail area to scavenge in combination with a scraper and also give some area for airflow in a manner similar to the windage ports in the 3.0 blocks. The swinging pickup would probably be redundant with the Lindsey baffle idea since they both work to maintain oil to reduce aeration from air pockets in the oil. Justlooking for the best way to accomplish oil control with the most economical upgrades.
You can do the windage ports yourself. Not a super easy thing to do but it's not that bad.
I could post the tools, methods, etc and pics of the results if it's something you are considering.
Are you running balance shafts..?
T
06-23-2018, 10:03 PM
#5
Instructor
Thread Starter
Is your block still stripped pre-assembly..?
You can do the windage ports yourself. Not a super easy thing to do but it's not that bad.
I could post the tools, methods, etc and pics of the results if it's something you are considering.
Are you running balance shafts..?
T
You can do the windage ports yourself. Not a super easy thing to do but it's not that bad.
I could post the tools, methods, etc and pics of the results if it's something you are considering.
Are you running balance shafts..?
T
If you have a list of tools and a procedure I could do at home, I would be very interested in pursuing that.
On a side note, were you able to make more progress on your lower control arm design from your thread? I was following that and would be interested in a reasonably priced set of lower control arms at some point in the next 6 months or so. I bought a pair of tubular high caster upper arms for my 4runner for $450 competed with bushings and ball joint and powdecorated even so I know a lower control arm could be made for about that or so.
ps. I am planning to installed the Tial 38mm wastegate you sod me last year soon as well.
06-24-2018, 11:09 AM
#6
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Terry...diy windage ports... spill 
not much room (ground clearance) to Do it but a tall, narrow cylinder would be ideal as an oil pan or oil pickup area. Oil sloshes from cornering but if the pickup is deep under the oil and the sloshing contained by small diameter, you'll never lose oil.
not much room (ground clearance) to Do it but a tall, narrow cylinder would be ideal as an oil pan or oil pickup area. Oil sloshes from cornering but if the pickup is deep under the oil and the sloshing contained by small diameter, you'll never lose oil.
06-24-2018, 01:07 PM
#7
Race Car
D@mned internet is shady and cable co. can't come out until tomorrow.
They say it's area specific, tell me, will be fine in 3 hours but my sister lives a block away and they tell her something else....
Will try to post up pics, tools, etc. asap but I think OP says he has sleeves (?) so not sure what good it will do for him.
T
They say it's area specific, tell me, will be fine in 3 hours but my sister lives a block away and they tell her something else....
Will try to post up pics, tools, etc. asap but I think OP says he has sleeves (?) so not sure what good it will do for him.
T
Terry...diy windage ports... spill
not much room (ground clearance) to Do it but a tall, narrow cylinder would be ideal as an oil pan or oil pickup area. Oil sloshes from cornering but if the pickup is deep under the oil and the sloshing contained by small diameter, you'll never lose oil.
not much room (ground clearance) to Do it but a tall, narrow cylinder would be ideal as an oil pan or oil pickup area. Oil sloshes from cornering but if the pickup is deep under the oil and the sloshing contained by small diameter, you'll never lose oil.
Trending Topics
06-24-2018, 02:08 PM
#8
Instructor
Thread Starter
Top view of sleeves
Bottom of sleeves in block main webbing
Deck surface of sleeves
Main webbing with ruler for perspective
I am copying the 2.85l hybrid build ala Shawn and Sid. Dry sleeved 2.5 block with straight sbc 4.030 sleeves installed in block. Using an offset ground rod journal and mitsu rod to eliminate common Porsche rod bearing issue. I plan to mostly use it for street but hope to do some pca de events as well and there are a few road courses around as well.
I am attaching a few pictures of the sleeves and it can be seen where the boring bar also touched on the area where the windage ports usully go but the sleeves don't cover that area. I was not sure if removing material from there would destabilize the block and sleeve interference by adding extra flex in the main webbing. I am interested in your tools and procedures as I can not get my 90° die grinder in that area and I am afraid an aggressive and large enough cutter on a straight die grinder will be uncontrollable. I have been considering a large drill press as an alternative to the preferred milling machine to do this job.
06-24-2018, 06:27 PM
#10
Race Car
Probably at least have to hone the block again though.
T
06-24-2018, 06:59 PM
#11
Race Car
Gonna do this in multiple posts so I don't lose connection or my laptop locks up....
Looking at a block, you notice a recesses area in the casting where these normally go in the later 104mm blocks.
The main bearing saddles are very thick but you'll need to pick a spot in the shiny area of the casting and make a start up hole all the way through to get started.
There is no room for a drill, so what I did was use a 90 degree 1/4" air die grinder.
You cut the bits strategically to a length that can hide in the chuck depth, start the hole and then let some length of drill bit out and retighten as you go.
I had cobalt bits and probably used 5-6 just to make an initial 1/4" hole clean through the block in the #2, 3 and 4 main bearing saddles.
I then used a carbide 1/4" high speed knurled cutter to remove all material in the shiny factory recess where the later ports were located.
From there, I lowered a stock piston in the bore, and aligned the piston pin bore with crank centerline and used the piston to square a sharpie mark for the upper horizontal limit.
My holes are just high enough where venting can continue partially through the piston pin itself to BDC.
For those thinking this mod only helps in suspended oil cloud and/or front to rear oil transfer under braking and acceleration, that's just icing.
A piston is sealed by the rings on the crankcase side as well, so it displaces an amount of air equal to it's bore and stroke.
This allows the air displaced from a down moving piston to transfer to the cylinder next to it as the piston moves up without it having to travel through a drum of oil that is whipped up by the crankshaft weights.
Think of it as one piston exhaling and the other tied to the port inhaling. The block is now able to breathe this air movement.
This is why there was an unexpected power gain as per Porsche when the design intent was really for windage.
Some of the tools, forget the roloc disc, I was working on a door....
The small cutter takes over from the 1/4" drilled hole, as soon as enlarged enough, I moved to the larger cutter.
You have to be careful and color between your lines and keep the cutter and tool perpendicular to the work.
I also used a dremel with a 90 degree head attachment and similar but smaller cutters at 1st but it is too slow and not a necessary tool for the job.
T
Looking at a block, you notice a recesses area in the casting where these normally go in the later 104mm blocks.
The main bearing saddles are very thick but you'll need to pick a spot in the shiny area of the casting and make a start up hole all the way through to get started.
There is no room for a drill, so what I did was use a 90 degree 1/4" air die grinder.
You cut the bits strategically to a length that can hide in the chuck depth, start the hole and then let some length of drill bit out and retighten as you go.
I had cobalt bits and probably used 5-6 just to make an initial 1/4" hole clean through the block in the #2, 3 and 4 main bearing saddles.
I then used a carbide 1/4" high speed knurled cutter to remove all material in the shiny factory recess where the later ports were located.
From there, I lowered a stock piston in the bore, and aligned the piston pin bore with crank centerline and used the piston to square a sharpie mark for the upper horizontal limit.
My holes are just high enough where venting can continue partially through the piston pin itself to BDC.
For those thinking this mod only helps in suspended oil cloud and/or front to rear oil transfer under braking and acceleration, that's just icing.
A piston is sealed by the rings on the crankcase side as well, so it displaces an amount of air equal to it's bore and stroke.
This allows the air displaced from a down moving piston to transfer to the cylinder next to it as the piston moves up without it having to travel through a drum of oil that is whipped up by the crankshaft weights.
Think of it as one piston exhaling and the other tied to the port inhaling. The block is now able to breathe this air movement.
This is why there was an unexpected power gain as per Porsche when the design intent was really for windage.
Some of the tools, forget the roloc disc, I was working on a door....
The small cutter takes over from the 1/4" drilled hole, as soon as enlarged enough, I moved to the larger cutter.
You have to be careful and color between your lines and keep the cutter and tool perpendicular to the work.
I also used a dremel with a 90 degree head attachment and similar but smaller cutters at 1st but it is too slow and not a necessary tool for the job.
T
Last edited by 951and944S; 06-24-2018 at 07:21 PM.
06-24-2018, 07:10 PM
#12
Race Car
Right before I took the block for +.5mm bore and hone, I used a fine sanding drum on the dremel and polished up the light texture left by the carbide cutters.
This is really not necessary but here is a pic of the block ready for assembly after it was bored/honed/cleaned.
All said and done, would I do another.....absolutely.
The mod is definitely worth it for a race engine.
I was in contact with Lindsey to do this for me and their price is fair, it's just that you have to account for the labor + $300 shipping the block back and forth.
That's what made me decide to do my own.
T
06-25-2018, 01:38 AM
#13
Drifting
Having an oil pickup that swings on its own is a bad idea, the pivot point could creat a possible air leak which defeates the purpose. An oil pan screen would help as well as baffling. A bigger oil cooler always helps and so does changing the oil and filter regularly as well as cleaning the bugs off the oil cooler and condenser or radiator (which ever applies) to help cool your engine. Also the ducting for all the cooling systems should be in place.
Also porsche only used two ports between cylinder 1/2 and 3/4 and only on 104mm blocks. Having a port between cylinders 2/3 doesn’t help and only hurts the integrity of the block. That’s why Porsche didn’t put a port between 2/3 on the 104mm blocks. Also the 104mm blocks have cylinder walls that connect unlike 100mm block with coolant jackets surrounding them so the 104mm blocks are much stronger and can handle that small meterial loss for the ports without loosing much integrity in the block. I would consider the idea of using a little block filler in a 100mm block with windage ports.
Also porsche only used two ports between cylinder 1/2 and 3/4 and only on 104mm blocks. Having a port between cylinders 2/3 doesn’t help and only hurts the integrity of the block. That’s why Porsche didn’t put a port between 2/3 on the 104mm blocks. Also the 104mm blocks have cylinder walls that connect unlike 100mm block with coolant jackets surrounding them so the 104mm blocks are much stronger and can handle that small meterial loss for the ports without loosing much integrity in the block. I would consider the idea of using a little block filler in a 100mm block with windage ports.
Last edited by Humboldtgrin; 06-25-2018 at 02:03 AM.
06-25-2018, 10:20 AM
#14
Instructor
Thread Starter
I have already partially filled the block before the sleeves were installed per Shawn’s original design. They are filled to the height of the revised raised jacket in the 3.0 block. I don’t remember the height exactly off the top of my head, but it was about halfway. I like the idea of the windage port and have most of the tools already but don’t want to have to rehone the cylinders as I have already gapped my rings for this finished block. I may do some more measuring and see what’s the best plan at this point. After some more reading about swinging pickups for other engines, it seems that the pivot point is a failure on some and can lead to an air leak and pressure loss, anathema to the whole purpose of reducing oil aeration.
My plan as of now is stick with original style pickup, install Lindsey baffle/pickup, reinforce pickup point, larger oil cooler similar to Lindsey 3x idea, probably elimination of factory oil cooler and use a 23 row Setrab, update oil thermostat and a crank scraper and see about porting a windage port, at a minimum in the 1/2 main webbing. Now, if only the temperature was under 100*f in my garage for the next few months.
My plan as of now is stick with original style pickup, install Lindsey baffle/pickup, reinforce pickup point, larger oil cooler similar to Lindsey 3x idea, probably elimination of factory oil cooler and use a 23 row Setrab, update oil thermostat and a crank scraper and see about porting a windage port, at a minimum in the 1/2 main webbing. Now, if only the temperature was under 100*f in my garage for the next few months.
