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Rogue Tuning still around?

Old 05-24-2018, 12:58 PM
  #31  
bw993
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I've been using the M-Tune on my track 951 with E85 for the last 7-8 years, so I guess I have a early Rogue setup. This is the third MAF system that I have used, so I have some experience with products from other vendors as a base of reference. Over the course that time, I have probably close to a thousand hours of track time with the M-Tune, and I am comfortable in saying that the early M-Tune is a reliable system. In the time that I have had the M-Tune, I have probably seen, and resolved most of the common issues seen with the M-Tune MAF system, such as rich at WOT, high idle, surging idle, on boost and off boost stumbles, . To me, the benefits of a true MAF system like the M-Tune that allowed changes to the intake, turbos swaps, different max. boost settings and use of E85 or race fuel, without re-tuning far outweigh any of the negatives with the system. And having used other MAF systems in the past, the causes of the M-Tune issues would also impact most other MAF systems based on my experience.

Here are the key things that I have experienced with my early M-Tune MAF:

Running rich @ WOT
1. Pressure leak after the MAF sensor due to either leaks in vacuum lines, BOV or M-Tune plastic MAF tube (on my third tube)
2. 3 BAR FPR should be at 43 - 44.5 PSI, but is regulating at higher ~47-48.5 PSI. This is a common problem based on my testing of eight different Bosch parts.
3, Check DME temperature sensor

Surging idle
1, Vacuum leaks. Check usual suspects.

High idle
1. Reset idle or you have an early software version with the high idle preset by Rogue (1100 rpm). I think this was addressed in a later release.

Boost stumbles
1. Vacuum/pressure leak. Check usual suspects.
2. MAP sensor pressure reading is out of range based on calculated MAF values. Check line to MAP and ensure that the line from manifold to sensor is no longer than 8" and is a direct connection.
3. Your boost exceeds M-Tune limits and the software cuts off fuel. Common problem with manual boost controllers.
4. Rich at WOT AFR is below 10, see above.
5. Spark issues. Lower spark plug gaps, check rotor, lines, upgrade coil.
4. Use stock KLR chip with M-Tune

Last edited by bw993; 05-24-2018 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 05-24-2018, 03:06 PM
  #32  
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I understand that potential lack of support is risk you take when you pick up items on the secondary market, so no hard feeling to Josh or LR.

However, I suspect I'm not the only one in the position of having a older Josh version that LR does not support, and i'm sure there are original owners still running M-tune. Is there a an M-tune sub group or Facebook page or something similar to aid with sharing of challenges and ideas?

Above Info is helpful - thanks BW993
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Old 05-24-2018, 04:43 PM
  #33  
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Not sure how many people know this but Lindsey Racing build an aluminum replacement pipe for the older M-tune to replace the plastic one and has been flow tested to use with the old M-tune......not to be confused with the new LR Mtune.
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Old 05-24-2018, 05:14 PM
  #34  
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I would highly recommend swapping the original plastic Rogue MAF tube, with the LR aluminum tube. I made that change last year to eliminate a regular source of leaks, and the LR tube is a quality product.
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Old 05-24-2018, 06:52 PM
  #35  
DarrenD
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This is some fantastic info guys. Great post bw993!I

Running rich @ WOT
1. Pressure leak after the MAF sensor due to either leaks in vacuum lines, BOV or M-Tune plastic MAF tube (on my third tube) All vacuum lines have been replaced and verified multiple times. No leaks.
2. 3 BAR FPR should be at 43 - 44.5 PSI, but is regulating at higher ~47-48.5 PSI. This is a common problem based on my testing of eight different Bosch parts. It does run much better with the stock FPR, I wish I'd gone adj. FPR from the start.
3, Check DME temperature sensor - I'm running the Rogue DME


I was poking around last night and it's possible my early Rogue MAF tube is leaking. I spent some time on it today at work trying to seal up some things, I 'll post my results.
My car idles very well, AFR's are spot on. Part throttle cruising is perfect sometimes and other times a little rich, nothing that worries me.
WOT is rich. I do think I'm going to get an adjustable FPR and gauge so I know exactly where I'm at with regards to fuel pressure.
Hopefully Joshua can burn me a new chip that is more appropiate to my setup.
The car was transformed with theM-tune. Drive-ability is fantastic, throttle response is great, off boost performance is night and day better. If I can get the rich condition at WOT sorted, it'll be amazing.
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Old 05-25-2018, 06:01 PM
  #36  
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Darren,

Apologies for posting in your thread. In an effort to address my own request for an M tune sub group, I wanted to post links to a couple old threads on challenges and solutions that others had with the system when it was first released.

https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...e-install.html

https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...-problems.html

Seems the high idle / rev hang was common. Recommended fix is follow Clark's / factory procedure to reset idle. Maybe even set idle a little low.

Installation of the logger was recommended. Concerns that dash rev counter and boost gauge were not accurate. Use logger reading to set idle.

Logger available here: https://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Por...4-DME-LOG.html

Other concerts were dirty/old ISV
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Old 05-25-2018, 06:45 PM
  #37  
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^^ No worries. The more info we can share the better. I already have a logger but I cant seem to get it working, I'm pretty sure it's my crappy laptop that is the issue.
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Old 05-26-2018, 11:32 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by fast951 View Post
Perhaps you need to read the initial post once more. The problem, as described is "very rich at WOT" .
Adjusting the fuel via a FPR (or FQS) alters the fuel across the board, not just at WOT.
So instead of fixing the "real problem", you suggest he hides the symptoms by leaning the fuel mixture across the board and risk running lean at idle and PT?
I think it's bad advice as he did not solve the real problem, but instead he could be introducing new problems. As I stated, it could be a problem with the "car or tune". Let's look at a one possibility where he could have a pressure leak in the system, which causes a rich AFR under load. A pressure leak will eventually becomes a vacuum leak, which means lean AFRs at idle and light load.
By reducing fuel pressure as you suggested, the AFRs will be very lean across the board, except maybe WOT. Now we are chasing more problems. Well you get the picture.



​​
I agree with this statement, based on trying to reach 200 hp with a 944 2.5 n/a 8 valve while still using motronic & swapping between 2.5 & 3 bar fuel regulators & messing with the FQS. It was very similar to the performance of a carb (I was able to have a small window of perfect afr, but other wise too rich or 2 lean).

HOWEVER, I was using a Wilks "Race Chip" that deletes the O2 sensor. I blamed the O2 sensor delete, since in my mind the ecm wasn't adjusting the fuel spray based on too rich or too lean settings. Sorry, just remembered this. I didn't have the chance to retest with an active O2 sensor, but for the amount of mechanical changes I had done, I'm quite sure a proper tune was in order.

Regarding the FQS, a friend of mine had conducted a test and found the 2% -/+ on the DME was actually 20% increase or decrease in the fuel delivery. Anyone else perform research?
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Old 05-28-2018, 05:48 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by bw993 View Post
I would highly recommend swapping the original plastic Rogue MAF tube, with the LR aluminum tube. I made that change last year to eliminate a regular source of leaks, and the LR tube is a quality product.
Glad to see LR is supporting users of the early Rogue MAF system by supplying this tube. My plastic one seems fine for now but I'll probably order one for insurance purposes. Is there a particular part of the plastic tube that's prone to failure I should be watching for?

FWIW, my car tends to run lean at idle and on boost with nominal fuel pressure settings so for now I've fixed it by changing the FQS setting to add fuel.
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Old 05-28-2018, 09:57 PM
  #40  
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What I found with my old Rogue MAF plastic tubes was that it they would leak under pressure at the BOV and or AOS return ports.
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Old 05-29-2018, 09:25 PM
  #41  
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Thanks Bill. To be clear, there were two versions of the plastic tube. Mine is the later version with small arrow on the MAF flange. The early pipe has a large raised arrow on the top-side of the MAF pipe, pointing towards the turbocharger. For those who have reported failures with the plastic tube, it would be helpful to also know which version you have / had.
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Old 10-30-2018, 04:09 AM
  #42  
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Hey guys, can anyone confirm if the Rogue A-tune chips are suitable for ROW vehicles.

I have an Australian delivered 86 951 and I realise that the American market cars were different in a lot of cases to the ROW cars - just wondering if the computers were the same.

Simon
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Old 10-30-2018, 08:19 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Bambalam View Post
Hey guys, can anyone confirm if the Rogue A-tune chips are suitable for ROW vehicles.

I have an Australian delivered 86 951 and I realise that the American market cars were different in a lot of cases to the ROW cars - just wondering if the computers were the same.

Simon
I donĺt see any reason why it wouldnĺt work.
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:55 AM
  #44  
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Thanks mate.
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Old 10-31-2018, 11:31 AM
  #45  
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Do you have a copy of the DME Test Plan document? If not, you can probably find it with a little searching. It lists the part numbers for the DME and KLR of US/ROW cars. Here's a screenshot of the relevant page.

It looks like the DME and KLR are basically the same for all regions since 1985.
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