Ignition systems for high hp builds, what are you using?
10-06-2017, 06:41 AM
#1
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Ignition systems for high hp builds, what are you using?
Currently looking at ignition systems.
CDI and Inductive. I know the differences, but i'd like to see what people are using and why?
Wasted spark? yes/no why?
COP is not an option.
TIA
Pauly.
CDI and Inductive. I know the differences, but i'd like to see what people are using and why?
Wasted spark? yes/no why?
COP is not an option.
TIA
Pauly.
10-06-2017, 08:25 AM
#2
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I was very happy when I got my wasted spark kit years ago.
It fixed my ethanol high boost map in the upper rpms .
The car had a few misfires during tuning above 5800rpm . I remember gapping plugs to the extreme but after the install I just ran gaps at specs with zero issues.
also I liked to get rid of that mechanical distributor, it was very useful when I played with the adjustable cam gear.
Apart from that what can I say ? It has less parts that can go mechanically wrong but more electronic adjustments.
It fixed my ethanol high boost map in the upper rpms .
The car had a few misfires during tuning above 5800rpm . I remember gapping plugs to the extreme but after the install I just ran gaps at specs with zero issues.
also I liked to get rid of that mechanical distributor, it was very useful when I played with the adjustable cam gear.
Apart from that what can I say ? It has less parts that can go mechanically wrong but more electronic adjustments.
10-06-2017, 08:41 PM
#3
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MSD 6A; HVCII coil (8253); Magnecor wires; NGK 7ES plugs at .26; stock cap and rotor. Strong spark, fairly cheap, nothing exotic. It is plenty enough spark for my motor.
Last edited by Tom M'Guinn; 10-07-2017 at 11:54 AM.
10-07-2017, 01:16 AM
#5
Rennlist Member
Forgot the why part.
Sensors
I find the magnetic sensors are easy to work with and it gives you the ability to trigger off of things you might normally over look. I don't know of any stand alone ECU that does not have a Hall sensor option built in.
Coils
The inductive system is simple and robust. With the newer modular coil systems (multiple coils) the advantage of multi coils of the CDI is gone that they had at higher RPMs. Also if you push these engines much over 7,000 rpms you are taking on big risk, I personally limit my motors to 6,500 RPM.
Spark
Wasted Spark is easier to set up and again with the modular coil packs it doesn't cost you anything in spark intensity.
Sensors
I find the magnetic sensors are easy to work with and it gives you the ability to trigger off of things you might normally over look. I don't know of any stand alone ECU that does not have a Hall sensor option built in.
Coils
The inductive system is simple and robust. With the newer modular coil systems (multiple coils) the advantage of multi coils of the CDI is gone that they had at higher RPMs. Also if you push these engines much over 7,000 rpms you are taking on big risk, I personally limit my motors to 6,500 RPM.
Spark
Wasted Spark is easier to set up and again with the modular coil packs it doesn't cost you anything in spark intensity.
10-08-2017, 03:22 AM
#6
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Thanks guys for your input.
I wasn't sure what i was getting my self into with ignition systems as there's quite a few to choose from.
CDI i need an ignition module + a set of coils.
Inductive, either some coils have igniters built in or i need a separate igniter.
Hence why this thread to get an idea what people are running.
I think i'll end up with The ign1a coils. Built in igniter which makes things easier and they seem powerful enough.
I dont even know who make that specific coil. I just know many companies put their own stickers on them.
http://www.compsystems.com.au/index....ive-smart-coil
I wasn't sure what i was getting my self into with ignition systems as there's quite a few to choose from.
CDI i need an ignition module + a set of coils.
Inductive, either some coils have igniters built in or i need a separate igniter.
Hence why this thread to get an idea what people are running.
I think i'll end up with The ign1a coils. Built in igniter which makes things easier and they seem powerful enough.
I dont even know who make that specific coil. I just know many companies put their own stickers on them.
http://www.compsystems.com.au/index....ive-smart-coil
10-08-2017, 06:07 AM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Have used Bosch wasted spark coilpack on many cars as have used VAG COP ignition, they work nicely.
But for my '67 911 I fabricated a twin-plug distributor out of Jaguar V12 dizzy to retain retro look. But it is fed by two Bosch coils that are controlled by VEMS ECU, it is simple inductive system like 954/993 use. And there is also cam sync sensor built into the distributor.
No need to overthink it.
But for my '67 911 I fabricated a twin-plug distributor out of Jaguar V12 dizzy to retain retro look. But it is fed by two Bosch coils that are controlled by VEMS ECU, it is simple inductive system like 954/993 use. And there is also cam sync sensor built into the distributor.
No need to overthink it.
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10-08-2017, 12:46 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Thanks guys for your input.
I wasn't sure what i was getting my self into with ignition systems as there's quite a few to choose from.
CDI i need an ignition module + a set of coils.
Inductive, either some coils have igniters built in or i need a separate igniter.
Hence why this thread to get an idea what people are running.
I think i'll end up with The ign1a coils. Built in igniter which makes things easier and they seem powerful enough.
I dont even know who make that specific coil. I just know many companies put their own stickers on them.
http://www.compsystems.com.au/index....ive-smart-coil
I wasn't sure what i was getting my self into with ignition systems as there's quite a few to choose from.
CDI i need an ignition module + a set of coils.
Inductive, either some coils have igniters built in or i need a separate igniter.
Hence why this thread to get an idea what people are running.
I think i'll end up with The ign1a coils. Built in igniter which makes things easier and they seem powerful enough.
I dont even know who make that specific coil. I just know many companies put their own stickers on them.
http://www.compsystems.com.au/index....ive-smart-coil
http://www.motec.com/ac-is-inductive...itioncoils-md/
10-08-2017, 01:49 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
As others have said, even a dizzy setup will work if the coil and gap are chosen properly. In my NA i just used LS coils. Easiest option, cheap parts. Even less work than making stock ignition work with the Microsquirt ECU (no onboard high power drivers). It feels a little smoother than dizzy ignition up high, probably slightly better burn quality up there. Stock coil sacrifices dwell/saturation time after 4500rpm or something, if you do the math. But this was done for convenience/overkill more than anything.
For my 951, I have 4x Hayabusa COP sticks and a QuadSpark igniter module. This is driven by packaging constraints - 951 engine bay can be cramped. The igniter can be mounted wherever and there's only harness wiring coil to the actual coils/plugs area.
I've set up a few 4cyl/6cyl cars with standalones and the biggest parameters to me, as far as ignition, have been:
A) Engine bay setup. Sometimes you need to design around packaging, i.e. where will these parts actually be located and where would the HT leads run. In the 951 there are a few options but sometimes there's other gear in the way, like maybe a catch can or something. Also it's common sense, but they shouldn't be right next to hot exhaust parts. Some coils can sporadically discharge (LSx for example) when they overheat and now there are uncontrolled ignition events happening.
B) What the ECU can use. Stock DME has onboard coil charge circuitry, so the pulsed ground to the coil is capable of sinking high current back through the DME to one of its grounds. Compare to the 16v DMEs where there is an external igniter, basically "outsourcing" that job to a dedicated part. DME tells the igniter what to do with a low-power signal which is then amplified. With a standalone this depends on how it's set up. If there are no high-power drivers onboard, you can use "smart" coils like the IGN1A or LSx coils, they have the igniters build in and can use a 5v logic-level control signal directly from the ECU. You can also use something like a QuadSpark or a Bosch 4-channel igniter to interface the ECU's control signal with coils that lack built-in igniters, such as the common dual-tower wasted spark coils (GM 3800 style).
C) Dwell control. Make sure you choose coil(s) where the proper dwell time is documented. Other parameters like discharge time and dwell/voltage calibration curves are good to have to make sure they're driven properly. You should be given these with most aftermarket performance coils and this data is readily available for common OEM coils like the LS parts.
For my 951, I have 4x Hayabusa COP sticks and a QuadSpark igniter module. This is driven by packaging constraints - 951 engine bay can be cramped. The igniter can be mounted wherever and there's only harness wiring coil to the actual coils/plugs area.
I've set up a few 4cyl/6cyl cars with standalones and the biggest parameters to me, as far as ignition, have been:
A) Engine bay setup. Sometimes you need to design around packaging, i.e. where will these parts actually be located and where would the HT leads run. In the 951 there are a few options but sometimes there's other gear in the way, like maybe a catch can or something. Also it's common sense, but they shouldn't be right next to hot exhaust parts. Some coils can sporadically discharge (LSx for example) when they overheat and now there are uncontrolled ignition events happening.
B) What the ECU can use. Stock DME has onboard coil charge circuitry, so the pulsed ground to the coil is capable of sinking high current back through the DME to one of its grounds. Compare to the 16v DMEs where there is an external igniter, basically "outsourcing" that job to a dedicated part. DME tells the igniter what to do with a low-power signal which is then amplified. With a standalone this depends on how it's set up. If there are no high-power drivers onboard, you can use "smart" coils like the IGN1A or LSx coils, they have the igniters build in and can use a 5v logic-level control signal directly from the ECU. You can also use something like a QuadSpark or a Bosch 4-channel igniter to interface the ECU's control signal with coils that lack built-in igniters, such as the common dual-tower wasted spark coils (GM 3800 style).
C) Dwell control. Make sure you choose coil(s) where the proper dwell time is documented. Other parameters like discharge time and dwell/voltage calibration curves are good to have to make sure they're driven properly. You should be given these with most aftermarket performance coils and this data is readily available for common OEM coils like the LS parts.
10-08-2017, 03:10 PM
#10
Rainman
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with 8v head probably easier to do a waste spark coil pack and maybe re-use stock ign. wires.
plus i kind of dig the look of the wires.
16v head has more space for COPs.
plus i kind of dig the look of the wires.
16v head has more space for COPs.
10-08-2017, 09:52 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
How much power do you plan to make?
I'm using the MSD Blaster 2 coil on stock cap and rotor, new Beru wires and BPR7ES plugs gapped to .024" and it works well at the 400 WHP level. I also have dwell time adjusted in the stock DME to match the hotter coil.
I'm using the MSD Blaster 2 coil on stock cap and rotor, new Beru wires and BPR7ES plugs gapped to .024" and it works well at the 400 WHP level. I also have dwell time adjusted in the stock DME to match the hotter coil.
10-08-2017, 11:40 PM
#12
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Have used Bosch wasted spark coilpack on many cars as have used VAG COP ignition, they work nicely.
But for my '67 911 I fabricated a twin-plug distributor out of Jaguar V12 dizzy to retain retro look. But it is fed by two Bosch coils that are controlled by VEMS ECU, it is simple inductive system like 954/993 use. And there is also cam sync sensor built into the distributor.
No need to overthink it.
But for my '67 911 I fabricated a twin-plug distributor out of Jaguar V12 dizzy to retain retro look. But it is fed by two Bosch coils that are controlled by VEMS ECU, it is simple inductive system like 954/993 use. And there is also cam sync sensor built into the distributor.
No need to overthink it.
I don't know who makes this for motec but it includes the igniter part number 42009
http://www.motec.com/ac-is-inductive...itioncoils-md/
http://www.motec.com/ac-is-inductive...itioncoils-md/
But pretty sure that's a wasted spark only setup.
As others have said, even a dizzy setup will work if the coil and gap are chosen properly. In my NA i just used LS coils. Easiest option, cheap parts. Even less work than making stock ignition work with the Microsquirt ECU (no onboard high power drivers). It feels a little smoother than dizzy ignition up high, probably slightly better burn quality up there. Stock coil sacrifices dwell/saturation time after 4500rpm or something, if you do the math. But this was done for convenience/overkill more than anything.
For my 951, I have 4x Hayabusa COP sticks and a QuadSpark igniter module. This is driven by packaging constraints - 951 engine bay can be cramped. The igniter can be mounted wherever and there's only harness wiring coil to the actual coils/plugs area.
I've set up a few 4cyl/6cyl cars with standalones and the biggest parameters to me, as far as ignition, have been:
A) Engine bay setup. Sometimes you need to design around packaging, i.e. where will these parts actually be located and where would the HT leads run. In the 951 there are a few options but sometimes there's other gear in the way, like maybe a catch can or something. Also it's common sense, but they shouldn't be right next to hot exhaust parts. Some coils can sporadically discharge (LSx for example) when they overheat and now there are uncontrolled ignition events happening.
B) What the ECU can use. Stock DME has onboard coil charge circuitry, so the pulsed ground to the coil is capable of sinking high current back through the DME to one of its grounds. Compare to the 16v DMEs where there is an external igniter, basically "outsourcing" that job to a dedicated part. DME tells the igniter what to do with a low-power signal which is then amplified. With a standalone this depends on how it's set up. If there are no high-power drivers onboard, you can use "smart" coils like the IGN1A or LSx coils, they have the igniters build in and can use a 5v logic-level control signal directly from the ECU. You can also use something like a QuadSpark or a Bosch 4-channel igniter to interface the ECU's control signal with coils that lack built-in igniters, such as the common dual-tower wasted spark coils (GM 3800 style).
C) Dwell control. Make sure you choose coil(s) where the proper dwell time is documented. Other parameters like discharge time and dwell/voltage calibration curves are good to have to make sure they're driven properly. You should be given these with most aftermarket performance coils and this data is readily available for common OEM coils like the LS parts.
For my 951, I have 4x Hayabusa COP sticks and a QuadSpark igniter module. This is driven by packaging constraints - 951 engine bay can be cramped. The igniter can be mounted wherever and there's only harness wiring coil to the actual coils/plugs area.
I've set up a few 4cyl/6cyl cars with standalones and the biggest parameters to me, as far as ignition, have been:
A) Engine bay setup. Sometimes you need to design around packaging, i.e. where will these parts actually be located and where would the HT leads run. In the 951 there are a few options but sometimes there's other gear in the way, like maybe a catch can or something. Also it's common sense, but they shouldn't be right next to hot exhaust parts. Some coils can sporadically discharge (LSx for example) when they overheat and now there are uncontrolled ignition events happening.
B) What the ECU can use. Stock DME has onboard coil charge circuitry, so the pulsed ground to the coil is capable of sinking high current back through the DME to one of its grounds. Compare to the 16v DMEs where there is an external igniter, basically "outsourcing" that job to a dedicated part. DME tells the igniter what to do with a low-power signal which is then amplified. With a standalone this depends on how it's set up. If there are no high-power drivers onboard, you can use "smart" coils like the IGN1A or LSx coils, they have the igniters build in and can use a 5v logic-level control signal directly from the ECU. You can also use something like a QuadSpark or a Bosch 4-channel igniter to interface the ECU's control signal with coils that lack built-in igniters, such as the common dual-tower wasted spark coils (GM 3800 style).
C) Dwell control. Make sure you choose coil(s) where the proper dwell time is documented. Other parameters like discharge time and dwell/voltage calibration curves are good to have to make sure they're driven properly. You should be given these with most aftermarket performance coils and this data is readily available for common OEM coils like the LS parts.
I'm using motec, so i have a lot of options really. Most coilpacks if bought from motec or a common coilpack like the IGN1a comes with spec sheets for that.
I have that same setup on my street 944t. works well.