*eurospeed951*

Well tonight was my last drive in my Porsche. At least for a long time anyways. I had the tow truck drop it off by the curb in front of my house, removed all my CD’s and personal objects, locked the doors and walked away.

It seems that this engine just was not meant to be. David if you are reading this, I was unable to get the leak down test done at a shop, as I wanted, but had it done with a very cheap gauge. My numbers were close to yours and also seem to be the result of the rings. Also the amount of smoke from the exhaust increased. I took it out to pick up something at a store tonight and just before I reached the store the car started to put out a lot more smoke than ever before and felt as though it was running on three cylinders. I nursed it into a parking space and waited an hour till my dad met me with some tools and his truck. We checked over everything we could get to and found nothing other than it seemed like there was a bit more oil coming from the oil/air separator and we noticed that my fuel pressure had dropped to almost nothing in about two hours. We assume that I have a leaking injector. When we started it back up it missed for a while than smoothed out, but produced an enormous amount of smoke. I didn’t want to let the car run for very long and it was VERY cold out so it was hard to tell if the smoke was from oil or fuel. It was white but smelled a little like fuel. Anyways I had it towed home.

So, as of now I am taking the car off insurance. As soon as we sell the Jaguar I am going to push the Porsche in the garage. Sometime over the next few years I will pull the engine and start collecting parts. I will also spend a LONG time doing research to try and figure out if this engine can ever be made to run correctly or if all the people, who told me that the all bore 2.8 with chromolly sleeves would not work, were right. If there is anyone reading this that has and engine similar to this other than David Floyd please email me!

Well, at least now that I have to pull the engine and wont be driving it for some time I will be able to paint it a different color like I wanted. It just sucks that it will most likely be a few years before I drive this thing again and I have only driven it for a total of about 5 months of the 3 years I have owned it.

I think I’m going to take a break from this car and throw a VR6 in my jetta. That’s something I know will be rewarding and cheap! Anyone happen to have a cheap VR6 swap they know of?

Take care all!
-Chris

mochman

What a drag.

Steve Lavigne

Could be an injector that is stuck open. I had one stick open and it blew massive amounts of white smoke out of the exhaust till the exhaust heated up enough to burn the fuel. You could try pulling the plastic injector cover and unplugging the injectors one at a time with the engine running. If there is no effect on the idle when you unplug one injector, that is your culprit.

David Floyd

Chris,

As Steve said, this could be an injector problem and pretty easy to check.

I know how you feel, you have spent a lot of money and time on the car and still have problems, makes you want to throw in the towel.

I plan to tear back into my engine in January and hopefully correct the problems. Tim has said he will stand behind his work and make things right.

The thing is there are not many of these chromolly sleeved engine around in the Porsche world, when John Anderson ( who was the one hyping this engine here on Rennlist ) split SFR he took what experence he had with him and left Tim in the dark.

John Anderson if you read this I feel you should step up and fill us in on the correct specs ( if there is such a thing ) for these engines. Chris and I both started our projects with you while at SFR, you bailed on us.

I think Tim ( with the help from JE ) did what he thought was best with respect to ring gaps and piston clearence, but has turned out to be too loose.

Sorry for the rant guy's

michael2e

Guys, FWIW really sorry to hear about the travails you've had with those engines. Almost hard to believe, as I contemplate what direction to take with my own stocker. I remember those engines being billed as bullet proof. Maybe Ian at 944online is right... just gut the thing and put in an LT1. Can't bring myself to it. Good luck

*eurospeed951*

David, thank you for stepping up and saying what needed to be said. I now know that you had just about the same experience as me. I pulled my engine apart and discovered scoring on the cylinder wall. I remember you had your engine blow at the track. We both began researching option around the same time. At the time John was at SFR. He heavily promoted this type of 2.8 conversion. I had many people tell me that similar setups had not worked out well. John assured me that his design was different do to the type of sleeve and the way it would be installed. I was also sold on the fact that I was told he had this setup in his car and it had been running great for some time. I was also told how much power it was making and was told that it was making that power with NO problems. Later I found out that there were some problems. Anyways, I had many phone and email conversations with John about having him do the machining work for my block. After a lot of thought I had my father give John at SFR his credit card number, as I was going to have to pay him back since if I recall it was somewhere in the 5k rang. His card was charged the very next day for the full amount and we shipped my block to John at SFR. Well after many weeks had past the date I was quoted to have my block back, I get on rennlist and find a post saying that John had left SFR. Well, at this point I had no idea who Tim was. I had never once spoken to him. Needless to say I was less than pleased with this surprise and vented my anger in the wrong place, here on rennlist. In just a few hours I was contacted by Tim. Though he was less than pleased with me for what I had posted on the list (which he had every right to be) he called to let me know that he would be taking care of my engine for me and assured me that he was more than capable. I calmed down, but never heard another word from John. Through out the next few months I ran into many problems, but Tim did his best to keep me informed along the way and was decent enough to apologize every time a problem arose. Once again I never heard from John even though he had made promises to me before he left SFR for things such as free SS fuel lines since even at that point I was running into delays.

Many of you have seen my posts on a few of the MANY problems that I have had with this engine. As of now I have not yet contacted Tim or John with ANY of these problems. This was because my father and I built my engine ourselves and I thought that David, who I believe had Tim build his engine, was having no problems with his engine. Now I am finding out that he has had many of the same problems I have. I did not want to bother Tim or John if the problems I was having had nothing to do with them, (such as a stuck open injector as described in my first post in this thread).

I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT THE WORK BEING DONE WAS A PROVEN DESIGN. I HAD NO IDEA THAT I WAS GETTING SOMETHING THAT THERE WERE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CORRECT PARTS TO USE OR SPECS!


*PLEASE READ THIS!* I want everyone to know that I have yet to speak with John or Tim about this. At this point since I do not have all the information I put NO BLAME ON TIM, JOHN, SFR, OR ANDERSON MOTORWORKS! I can say that John seemed to be willing to help from what he wrote in my last post about this. For all I know this is just some big misunderstanding that I am just not informed about. Please to not make any assumptions about John, Tim, or their companies/products, based on what I have posted.

My last few posts have been the first time I have truly discussed publicly, the details of the problems I have had. I do not care to discuses the events of the past anymore in public, but I will be posting the details of exactly what happens from here on out.
I am very optimistic, for some reason hahahahaha , that someone will step-up to offer their help to David and me.


THANKS ALL, FOR TAKING THE TIME TO READ THIS

David Floyd

Here is a thread from the past and 1 example of what Chris and I were sold on.



John Anderson
Addict
Rennlist Member


Registered: Nov 2001
Location: San Diego
Posts: 994

Its me,

The dreaded 2.82 builder HA!

First off, this engine I build, is the exact same engine I have in my car to this date...it has a few thousand miles on it...and no, I don't plan to hold off selling the engine until there are 500K on it to be sure nothing happens :-)

My compression now is better than it was when it was installed. This means the walls are holding up, and the rings are sealing great.

These are rolls royce sleeves installed by Porsche Mechinists that also do all the block work for the biggest Porsche dealer in San Diego.

These engines are strong, very freaking strong. My HP numbers and Torque numbers were reached at 18 psi boost with a slight spike that can be seen on our website. Its the first graph on the dyno page.

I did that run using an MAF kit, 52# injectors and stock fuel pump! Sure, I ran lean at the end, but the deal is...those are damn big numbers and you can't take that away :-) 515ftlbs and 415hp at the tires! THe torque peaked at an incredible 3600rpm! The HP hit around 4k and held till we shut it down at around 6k!

I drive my car everyday, to and from work, 50 miles round trip. I drive the car to pick my daughter up on the weekends, 200 mile round trip...I drive this car to the grocery store, Home Depot, and evrywhere else I need to go...its my daily driver! And yes, its been in a few red light races!

To this day I have not had one problem, nada, no blowby, no overheating, no blown gaskets, no bad bearings, infact, the oil stays caramel colored and does not get tainted with gas due to our unique taper bore! THe engine is very tight...it holds 20 vacuum at idle after all the torture and dyno runs its been put thru.

As far as copper gaskets, no way pal! They leak...anyone in the business that knows a thing or two will tell you..."copper is great for the strip, but bad for daily drivers...they leak like a siv"...so I use a modified 968 WFR gasket, no leaks whatsoever.

We have fair prices, we are honest about our products and take great pride and pleasure in delivering the very best available to you.

We do all our own machining,our exhaust systems are hand built at each order! Even the flanges are machined at our shop, by ME, every exhaust out there has been welded by tim, cut by tim, machined by me on a per order basis...I think that counts as something to say about our dedication to bringing you guys the very best we can. The same goes with our motors, our SC kits and MAF kits...So, maybe it takes a little while to get you your order, but there is a lot of care and pride in our work.

So rest easy everyone :-) YOu will be more than happy when you get the engine installed...all I have to say...save for tires my friends! Save for tires....

BY the way, We are running our two SC cars on the Dyno next Weds. We invite anyone to come and attend...I'll get the coffe for all...we are also in the process of installing a new ballbearing T66 turbo on my 2.8 (same engine as above) and will be running it also on the same day, we are hoping for over 500hp and the torque...well I would like to see 700lbs..but we'll see :-)

Take Care!


__________________
John
Rennlist Member Number 020329-3708

David Ray

Wow - what a mess! i'm not taking any sides, however, as Porsche recommends, when you start mess'n with the OEM engines there is no warranty and YOU assume all the risk.

No different than an amateur race car driver and mechanic routinely tearing down and rebuilding a high performance engine between races to make sure their reliable is greater between events. Doesn't mean the shop that originally built/spec'd the engine is responsible for the failures. How do they know you didn't inadvertently over rev the engine or didn't break it end according to their recommendations.

Guys once you step up to the plate and join the ranks of high performance racing engines it is advisable to have the capital to support such a habit. I've seen cars break at every event I've been to with high performance racing engines and the first thing out of their mouth is not the "house that built the engine".

They just tear it down and rebuild. It's the inherent risk you take on by moving up to a high performance engine world. No "house" in their right mind would build a high performance engine and guarantee it for any length of time. 90-120 days is typical but still not without risk!

I'm sorry for your engine failures, but whether they're SFR's or another’s responsibility its irrelevant, it's the risk WE’ve agreed to by changing the performance expectations of our cars.

David Floyd

Thanks for your thoughts David Ray,

My point is the engine had to much blow by from day one, blowing massive amounts of oil thru the oil/air seperator if any boost is run and has continued till today.

Break in was done as per instructed.

The engine has not seen revs past 5800 rpm and has seen very little boost and NO track time.

I also have a wideband O2 sensor, so I know my A/F ratio has been good.

All I ask is make the engine run as a new engine should then I will assume the responsibility of any engine failures due to my hard running.

BTW, I have talked with Tim and he is standing behind his work 100%

Dan87951

I have talked with David and Eurospeed951 a number of times when I was going through this or deal of finding a replacement engine for my #1 951. From what they told me, I didn't feel comfortable going with a 2.8L engine as reliability was key in this rebuild. My dealing with John has been a challenge at times but he has made an effort to make things right. My engine was delayed big time so I didn't have time to finish my install before I was off to college. I haven't even heard my engine run or even attempted to start it and I really hope I don't have the problems you guys did. My engine is just a basic 2.5L rebuild, Knige Crank, Ported and Polish head, and T04E turbo. Next summer I hope to get her running. I feel for your Euro and David, and I wish the best for you guys. This hobby gets expensive real quick!

John Anderson

David, Chris,

I am sorry for the problems you have, but I will stand by my post as copied above, I have no problems with the issues you are dealing with. Infact, our NA race car and our wide body turbo both run on sleeved blocks with 2-3% leakdown and no blowby at all. I had problems with the heads lifting, thats it. As far as my street turbo, I see that someone posted that I seemed to cover up issues:

Quoted from Chris, "I was also told how much power it was making and was told that it was making that power with NO problems. Later I found out that there were some problems."

I don't know what you heard, but the only problem I had was Garret turbo's on the engine, it was tight, and never blew oil or smoke.

David, if you remember correctly, when I left, you and I were in contact. We discussed the Anderson SFR split and your concerns. YOu discussed having your deposite returned from SFR, and having Anderson build the motor, in the end, you told me you decided to keep your motor at SFR because Tim "made you an offer you could not refuse". The deal I made with you at the time was, I would build it for the same price, no more or less. It was your decision not to have Anderson build the motor.

Chris, I don't know what you were told as far as engine break in. ring gaps, or piston/wall clearance, but it is obviously not my specs, again, I left SFR, it was no secret, AMW was formed, and everyone knew about it.

Engine specs are really the only secret that each tuner can have, what we do is not new, its not rocket science, the blocks are the same, the parts (for the most part) are the same, its how they go together in the critical areas that are the important thing. I built my 2.8, twice, and I learned by asking alot of questions and making mistakes on my own motor. So I keep my numbers close to me. Since then, we have built many engines, sleeved and not sleeved, mistakes happen, but we learn from each bad experience, now why do I want to take some of the info I learned the hard way and just put it out for everyone? Why not just ask Kentucky Fried for the spice recipe? I mean its just fried chicken right?

Boring the block does work, and it works well, its reliable...and there are other issues you have to adress when building a block like that, but they do work.

I have made mistakes, and I try to learn by them. I have people on this list that have trusted me, and have been thru quite an ordeal with me. But I make it right, and will always stand behind anything I build, it may be late, slow, or just not perfect the first time, it can try the patience, make enemies of friends, but we throw that aside and just try to fix the situation.

I posted on this subject just a week or two ago, stating that the ring gap and piston/wall clearance called out by JE is very conservative, this is not just my finding, but many speed shops find this to be tru also. I came up with my numbers by asking, driving parts around, making mistakes etc etc...I don't think its my obligation to start handing numbers out to everyone.

Take Care

David Floyd

John,

Your leaving SFR was a secret to me untill after you had already left.

You are correct that we were in contact after the split, the deposit money was with SFR and it did not seem right to me to request money be returned to me and start again with AMW.

Tim did make me a great offer, but I still thought I was buying the same engine design you had sold to me and started, so in my eyes I bought your specs even though you made the decision to leave the company you were at when we made the deal.

I don't want your specs to start my own company or to give to somebody, I want them for my personal engine that I actually bought, You made the decision to bail out in the middle of the build.

You can PM me if you wish.

Thanks

John Anderson

its already been done :-)

*eurospeed951*

OK, so let me see if I understand what is going on here:

1. I call you and ask about you doing your 2.8L conversion on my engine
2. You tell me the details of what you will do to my engine for a given price
3. I pay for the product you said you would build.
4. I recive somethong OTHER THAN WHAT I WAS TOLD I WAS PAYING FOR
5. You refuse to produce the original product I payed for
6. I am left with paying for something that I did not recive and have no
way to acquire(since you apparently are the only one who knows what
is needed)

I know there are a lot more details but when it comes down to it those are the basic facts!I paid for something I didn't get and am being told I can never have.

Please I do not want this to get out of hand here on the list. I can understand that you have to protect yourself and your company which requires that you not share all that you know. I would not ask you to do something that would jeperdize your livelyhood. From what I have heard you have made dramatic improvements in making sure that your cusomers are satisfied. All I am trying to do is get the product that was described and promised to me and that I worked my butt off to pay for. Once again I am not asking to give up anything or do anything that would put your company at risk.

I do believe that there is nothing wrong with tying to come up with other options.

I apreciate that this has been kept civil since. I know it is a sore subject for me and that you have your reputation to protect. I will do my best to contact you as soon as possable, though I am just getting ready to start final exams.

Also, I am sorry if I was incorrect in saying that there were other problems with your street engine. I should not have said this since I can not remember all of the details and though I have no reason to doubt the person I heard it from I personaly don't know it to be fact. What I head was that, yes, you did make those numbers with the setup you stated, but it continually overheated your DME. I am very sorry if I was missinformed and I will edit my post.

Like I said I will do my best to call you this week.

John Anderson

Chris, your correct, I was not thinking of electrical issues :-) Yes the DME over heated, but the injector driver was shot, swapped DME's and problem was fixed.

I know your frustrated, but can I address a few of your comments?

"Many of you have seen my posts on a few of the MANY problems that I have had with this engine. As of now I have not yet contacted Tim or John with ANY of these problems. This was because my father and I built my engine ourselves...."

Yes, you did build the motor, which explains your next statement:

"3. I pay for the product you said you would build."

Yes, you paid for the parts, but it was built by Your father and yourself. THe pistons and specs were not called out for, or delivered by the time I left, so, starting my own business at that time, and given the friction between SFR and AMW, would you expect that I continue to spend efforts at SFR instead of AMW?

"5. You refuse to produce the original product I payed for"

Why should I back up or pay for a product that was quite simply bought and paid for at SFR? THey recieved the funds, not AMW, so I ask, why is SFR not asked to back it up? If you wanted me to be the supplier, as well as David wants me to be the builder, then why didn't you two, after knowing about the AMW/ SFR split simply order from me? I know why, you had the money at Tims, and you fealt it was right to stay there, thats understandable, but making that decision, you knew also that SFR would be the company you called to back your product and have the expertise to build/supply what you needed.

"6. I am left with paying for something that I did not recive and have no
way to acquire(since you apparently are the only one who knows what
is needed)"

It was also my decision to stay off any threads about this issue. If the situation is not getting handled with SFR, thats between you and SFR, if you want my help, then call, and to date, you have not. I will not go into issues and post anything in detail on this board about this. I'm glad to help, but only by tele.

Take Care,