Need 1988 set of 944 pistons
09-19-2003, 03:36 AM
#1
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Fullerton, Ca.
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Need 1988 set of 944 pistons
I am building a new motor to run with the Spec 944 racers and would like to get a set of the high compression pistons used in the 88 cars. Anyone have a set or know where I can but them new? They seem to be in short supply. I need factory pistons to remain legal so after market ones will not work.
Thanks,
Eric
Thanks,
Eric
09-21-2003, 11:00 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
Bad news. They are non-existent. We have tried to get some for over a year, with no luck. The guy I race with built his engine with aftermarket pistons, and it isn't back together yet, so I cant tell you how they work. The block work was done by and through Memphis Motor Werks, and the block was changed to Nikosil. Even the "great" Jon Milidge is supose to be rebuilding them that way. Doing this is legal SCCA ITS, but probably not PCA, but I never heard of anyone being torn down, so how would you get caught. If you are wanting to run 944 Cup, a legal SCCA ITS car is legal there.
A friend in Orlando rebuilt his with used pistons. This guy is real fast, so I know it can be done. There are some caveats, so call Nort Northam at The Northam Collection in Orlando if you want to know what to look out for.
Lotsa luck
Bill Seifert
1983 944 race car
A friend in Orlando rebuilt his with used pistons. This guy is real fast, so I know it can be done. There are some caveats, so call Nort Northam at The Northam Collection in Orlando if you want to know what to look out for.
Lotsa luck
Bill Seifert
1983 944 race car
09-26-2003, 09:53 PM
#3
Race Director
Originally posted by Bill L Seifert
The guy I race with built his engine with aftermarket pistons, and it isn't back together yet, so I cant tell you how they work. The block work was done by and through Memphis Motor Werks, and the block was changed to Nikosil. Even the "great" Jon Milidge is supose to be rebuilding them that way. Doing this is legal SCCA ITS....
The guy I race with built his engine with aftermarket pistons, and it isn't back together yet, so I cant tell you how they work. The block work was done by and through Memphis Motor Werks, and the block was changed to Nikosil. Even the "great" Jon Milidge is supose to be rebuilding them that way. Doing this is legal SCCA ITS....
From the ITCS:
17.1.4.D.6.q: The application and/or use of any painting, coating, plating, or impregnating substance (i.e. anti-friction, thermal barrier, oil shedding coatings, chrome, anodizing, etc.) to any internal engine surface, including intake manifolds, is prohibited.
Furthermore, pistons must be of the stock design (i.e. same weight, dome or dish volume, etc.). Using high compression piston is strictly verboten.
09-30-2003, 11:56 AM
#4
Three Wheelin'
George,
Boy, I had never thought of that. We ran against a Milledge car at the ARRC last year, and got smoked. Next time, PROTEST. Also when my friend gets his car going, he had better not beat me, or he will get protested also.
Quick question, how would anyone prove if a block had been treated with Alusil (stock) or Nikosil (Not stock)? The block looks stock, I sure can't tell the difference. By the way, the aftermarket pistons are identical in looks to the stock pistons, compression is exactly the same.
Send your phone number by email to BillLSeifert@aol.com if you don't mind, I would like to find out about the car you are building.
Boy, I had never thought of that. We ran against a Milledge car at the ARRC last year, and got smoked. Next time, PROTEST. Also when my friend gets his car going, he had better not beat me, or he will get protested also.
Quick question, how would anyone prove if a block had been treated with Alusil (stock) or Nikosil (Not stock)? The block looks stock, I sure can't tell the difference. By the way, the aftermarket pistons are identical in looks to the stock pistons, compression is exactly the same.
Send your phone number by email to BillLSeifert@aol.com if you don't mind, I would like to find out about the car you are building.
09-30-2003, 12:26 PM
#5
Race Director
Originally posted by Bill L Seifert
Boy, I had never thought of that. We ran against a Milledge car at the ARRC last year, and got smoked. Next time, PROTEST. Also when my friend gets his car going, he had better not beat me, or he will get protested also.
Boy, I had never thought of that. We ran against a Milledge car at the ARRC last year, and got smoked. Next time, PROTEST. Also when my friend gets his car going, he had better not beat me, or he will get protested also.
Originally posted by Bill L Seifert
Quick question, how would anyone prove if a block had been treated with Alusil (stock) or Nikosil (Not stock)? The block looks stock, I sure can't tell the difference.
Quick question, how would anyone prove if a block had been treated with Alusil (stock) or Nikosil (Not stock)? The block looks stock, I sure can't tell the difference.
Originally posted by Bill L Seifert
By the way, the aftermarket pistons are identical in looks to the stock pistons, compression is exactly the same.
By the way, the aftermarket pistons are identical in looks to the stock pistons, compression is exactly the same.
Originally posted by Bill L Seifert
Send your phone number by email to BillLSeifert@aol.com if you don't mind, I would like to find out about the car you are building.
Send your phone number by email to BillLSeifert@aol.com if you don't mind, I would like to find out about the car you are building.
09-30-2003, 08:27 PM
#6
Instructor
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1) Eric, what about just shaving the head to come up to our max compression?
2) Doesn't Nikosil mean boring and inserting "sleeves"? How else could you change an otherwise aluminum-silicon block?
3) I've always wondered about the "185hp ITS legal" Milledge engine. I don't see how you get there without modifications to the head and probably at least lightening of the internals.
2) Doesn't Nikosil mean boring and inserting "sleeves"? How else could you change an otherwise aluminum-silicon block?
3) I've always wondered about the "185hp ITS legal" Milledge engine. I don't see how you get there without modifications to the head and probably at least lightening of the internals.
09-30-2003, 08:52 PM
#7
Race Director
Originally posted by JJG
3) I've always wondered about the "185hp ITS legal" Milledge engine. I don't see how you get there without modifications to the head and probably at least lightening of the internals.
3) I've always wondered about the "185hp ITS legal" Milledge engine. I don't see how you get there without modifications to the head and probably at least lightening of the internals.
We can port match up to 1" in. It's my guess there there is some significant gains to be had there, even though 1" seems like nothing. I'm just guessing though. Furthermore I'd guess that the working of the ports is asymetrical. Again, a guess.
We can also blend the valves seats into the ports, again 1" in. Our valve jobs must be to factory spec, however, most factory specs have a range of angles that are acceptable. Perhaps there is a critical set of angles that works best.
Other possibilities:
1) Blueprinted stock cam (taking advantage of ranges within the spec)
2) Jon is very specific about the header to use (supposedly makes a big difference)
3) He does his own DME maps. On race gas, this may be worth 10-15 hp.
Still, 40 additional hp on a nearly stock engine seems pretty amazing.
Trending Topics
10-04-2003, 11:00 AM
#8
Three Wheelin'
About shaving the head. I don't think there is enough room, valve hit is a possiblility. If you look at the difference in the pistons of a 9 to one compression engine as compared to a 10 to one engine. The difference is that on the 9 to one there is an indention in the piston that is about the size of a silver dollar, and on the 10 to one pistons the indention is about the size of a nickel. I believe the pistons are the same height, and about the maximum you can use, so if you shave the head, the valves will hit the pistons.
Bill Seifert
1983-soon to be 1987 944 race car
Bill Seifert
1983-soon to be 1987 944 race car
10-05-2003, 01:25 AM
#9
Pro
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 544
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't feel the difference between the 88 924s pistons and the 83 pistons for my first motor and the dynojet didn't show much of a difference either...that is with new rings on the 924s pistons as well. Both motors had fresh "944-spec" legal valve jobs .... 131-132WHP seems to be the ballpark.
As far as the hp search with Spec cars go if I had it all over I'd have more money in my pocket...spend it on tires or seat time...
BTW....anyone want to trade a set of Bursch headers for a late model factory tube type??? I have a jet hot coated Bursch header that I will trade...
I'm sure some heads flow better than others and some cams look like "stock cams" till they are on a dial indicator......
Paul
As far as the hp search with Spec cars go if I had it all over I'd have more money in my pocket...spend it on tires or seat time...
BTW....anyone want to trade a set of Bursch headers for a late model factory tube type??? I have a jet hot coated Bursch header that I will trade...
I'm sure some heads flow better than others and some cams look like "stock cams" till they are on a dial indicator......
Paul
10-05-2003, 01:16 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Paul,
Isn't there an indention on the tops of both pistons. It looks like a coin would fit in the indention. The one on the 88 pistons is real small, about dime or nickel size, and the one on the early piston, about half or dollar size. I will look at a set of 88 pistons we have at a friends house, I am going there today, so I will let you know if my memory is correct. I have to warn you I'm old, and can't really remember what I did yesterday.
About heads, conventional wisdom is that Jon Milledge is suppose to be the best, but I find him impossible to talk to. Memphis Motorwerks in Germantown, Tenn is suppose to have a guy that is real good, that friend that I am seeing today has one, but we haven't run the engine yet (We should today, but not race til Oct 25) so we will have to let you know about his ablility later. Also, I have heard that Milledge cams are the best, but are $650. Webcam says they can do as well for about $425, but I know of noone that has used one. I have run against a Milledge car, and I can tell you they put out a lot of HP.
Bill
Isn't there an indention on the tops of both pistons. It looks like a coin would fit in the indention. The one on the 88 pistons is real small, about dime or nickel size, and the one on the early piston, about half or dollar size. I will look at a set of 88 pistons we have at a friends house, I am going there today, so I will let you know if my memory is correct. I have to warn you I'm old, and can't really remember what I did yesterday.
About heads, conventional wisdom is that Jon Milledge is suppose to be the best, but I find him impossible to talk to. Memphis Motorwerks in Germantown, Tenn is suppose to have a guy that is real good, that friend that I am seeing today has one, but we haven't run the engine yet (We should today, but not race til Oct 25) so we will have to let you know about his ablility later. Also, I have heard that Milledge cams are the best, but are $650. Webcam says they can do as well for about $425, but I know of noone that has used one. I have run against a Milledge car, and I can tell you they put out a lot of HP.
Bill
10-05-2003, 08:57 PM
#11
Pro
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 544
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bill,
I didn't shave my head...it was only decked for staightness so it is not a issue. You can't touch the head in Spec racing except a valve job and machining for up to 11:1. We tried different heads(legal) and didn't find any differences in the results on a dynojet so.....I guess some shops just get lucky at finding "good heads" ....same thing for cams???
Like I said that is what dial indicators are for...
Paul
I didn't shave my head...it was only decked for staightness so it is not a issue. You can't touch the head in Spec racing except a valve job and machining for up to 11:1. We tried different heads(legal) and didn't find any differences in the results on a dynojet so.....I guess some shops just get lucky at finding "good heads" ....same thing for cams???
Like I said that is what dial indicators are for...
Paul
