944-spec racing on the West Coast is growing
03-12-2003, 01:46 PM
#31
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1:48!!! That is HAULIN! 1:52is pretty damn fast too!
The 944 Drivers' Cup will be at California in August - I wonder how our drivers will do with our spec tires (Yokohama slicks from the Toyota Atlantic cars - $100/each!)
The 944 Drivers' Cup will be at California in August - I wonder how our drivers will do with our spec tires (Yokohama slicks from the Toyota Atlantic cars - $100/each!)
03-12-2003, 02:07 PM
#32
Race Director
How many events do think the slicks are good for?
Think car weight would cause blistering? $100 is pretty damn good and something to consider for PCA racing GT4S to GT4R on a budget.
Think car weight would cause blistering? $100 is pretty damn good and something to consider for PCA racing GT4S to GT4R on a budget.
03-12-2003, 04:14 PM
#33
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We tested the tires on a Huntley Racing 914-6... almost no wear after one weekend, but the tires didn't quite make it up to full temp (lighter car). I think they should be good for a few weekends on a 944. The tires shouldn't blister or chunk - they are supposed to be run at around 240F! The 914 only got them up to around 200 after the full race. The only problem with using these tires on any car is that you can't buy them. They don't sell them. They are manufactured for only the Toyota Atlantic series, and any "left overs" are destroyed at the end of the season by Yokohama. They are changing their contract with that series to allow for the 944 Drivers' Cup to use the tires for our series as well (they have hundreds of them every year).
On the 914-6 that tried them at Buttonwillow, he picked up several seconds when he changed from his Kuhmo Victoracers to the Yokohamas, came back in the pits and said "Order me 10 sets of these things!" The driver said he could push his car as hard as he wanted with no problems... infact, the harder he pushed it, the better they stuck.
They look like great tires, and at $100 each, the price is pretty damn good!
Just a reminder: any cars legal for the NASA 944-spec series are also 100% legal in the 944 Drivers' Cup. This year, we have a $500 set of motor mounts, a full suspension package, and a set of SS headers to give away at the end of the year. We also have cash and $50 gift certificates for every race (plus beer and/or champagne, glass tropies, and the cute girl). We're waiting for other sponsors to return their sponsorship forms, but there will be more stuff to hand out as time progresses. Our next event is a 2.5 hour enduro at Laguna Seca for double points, so anyone interested should sign up ASAP since we expect that event to sell out pretty quickly.
On the 914-6 that tried them at Buttonwillow, he picked up several seconds when he changed from his Kuhmo Victoracers to the Yokohamas, came back in the pits and said "Order me 10 sets of these things!" The driver said he could push his car as hard as he wanted with no problems... infact, the harder he pushed it, the better they stuck.
They look like great tires, and at $100 each, the price is pretty damn good!
Just a reminder: any cars legal for the NASA 944-spec series are also 100% legal in the 944 Drivers' Cup. This year, we have a $500 set of motor mounts, a full suspension package, and a set of SS headers to give away at the end of the year. We also have cash and $50 gift certificates for every race (plus beer and/or champagne, glass tropies, and the cute girl). We're waiting for other sponsors to return their sponsorship forms, but there will be more stuff to hand out as time progresses. Our next event is a 2.5 hour enduro at Laguna Seca for double points, so anyone interested should sign up ASAP since we expect that event to sell out pretty quickly.
03-12-2003, 05:26 PM
#34
Race Director
I remember reading an artical by Chris Cervelli of Technodyne comparing Pirelli Slicks to Hoosiers. He said the while the slicks were faster they much less consistant. He said they were good for about 2 heat cycles then went bad. (plenty of rubber, but no grip). He came to the conclusion that Hoosiers were better suited to a club racer since we get multiple sessions per day on the track and need to run the same tires. A pro guy for example will run a fresh tire for qualifying and then rut it again during the race. They rarly put more than 2 heat cycles on a set of tires.
I guess that you still have not convined me that slicks are right way to go for a low budget series High Dollar PCA Club racing once or twice a year maybe.
BTW a 914/6 is 200-300 lighter than a 944-spec.
I guess that you still have not convined me that slicks are right way to go for a low budget series High Dollar PCA Club racing once or twice a year maybe.
BTW a 914/6 is 200-300 lighter than a 944-spec.
03-13-2003, 01:29 AM
#35
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another problem with buying used slicks is that you don't know how many heat cycles they've been through. Will you get 4 tires that are cycled the same, that are worn the same? I used to order used slicks for customers when I managed San Diego Motorsports. If you have to buy 2 sets of slicks per one set of Toyos, you're not saving money. I'll bet, based on the input from the 944-spec Phoenix group's experience, that the Toyos will last longer and be cheaper because of it.
It's not too late to come away from "the dark side" , Chris. 944-spec.com has already invented the wheel.
Tim Comeau
It's not too late to come away from "the dark side" , Chris. 944-spec.com has already invented the wheel.
Tim Comeau
03-13-2003, 05:04 AM
#36
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First of all, the slicks aren't used. The Toyota Atlantic people have to buy all their tires for the whole season at the beginning of the season, and Yokohama buys back the unused tires. We get these never been used, brand spankin new slicks.
As for the dark side... I think we're looking at this the wrong way here, Tim. What each of us has started has its merits and its downfalls. All your participants are legal in my series. I think its quite counter productive for us to try and make people exclusively participate in one series or another. Your series is more geared for the guy that is an up and coming driver - not much experience; wants to progress through all the motions (Ax->TT->Club). That's fine. Actually, that's a pretty good idea, and its well suited for people in that situation. My series, on the other hand, is for guys (and gals too) that are already club racing something or other. For example, there is one guy from TCRA that rolled his Toyota something or other last season, and he doesn't have a lot of money to continue the club racing. So, now he's prepping a 944. Another thing to consider here is that the 944 Drivers' Cup is a sub-series of the Porsche Drivers' Cup which also includes a spec 911 series, and a GT series.
We differ in the rules in a few respects. We allow free exhausts. You might have changed your rules in regards to this, but the reason we have this rule is to accomidate the race-only people that have straight pipes, side exit exhausts, etc. We allow coil overs on all 4 corners. Tires are different too - we use race only slicks, you have streetable (and more appropriate for lower temperatures) Toyos.
I'm saving up for my roll cage right now, but once that's in, my car should be ready to go. I'll be running stock suspension for a while, until I can afford something better, so I might just drive in a few of your events - while I'm still legal. And, I more than welcome you to come drive in our events. More driving = more fun, right? Our next event is May 23 @ Laguna Seca. There is a *strong* possibility of doing a 2.5 hr enduro that weekend, so bring a codriver, and if my car's done, then I'll see you ON the track!
Chris
As for the dark side... I think we're looking at this the wrong way here, Tim. What each of us has started has its merits and its downfalls. All your participants are legal in my series. I think its quite counter productive for us to try and make people exclusively participate in one series or another. Your series is more geared for the guy that is an up and coming driver - not much experience; wants to progress through all the motions (Ax->TT->Club). That's fine. Actually, that's a pretty good idea, and its well suited for people in that situation. My series, on the other hand, is for guys (and gals too) that are already club racing something or other. For example, there is one guy from TCRA that rolled his Toyota something or other last season, and he doesn't have a lot of money to continue the club racing. So, now he's prepping a 944. Another thing to consider here is that the 944 Drivers' Cup is a sub-series of the Porsche Drivers' Cup which also includes a spec 911 series, and a GT series.
We differ in the rules in a few respects. We allow free exhausts. You might have changed your rules in regards to this, but the reason we have this rule is to accomidate the race-only people that have straight pipes, side exit exhausts, etc. We allow coil overs on all 4 corners. Tires are different too - we use race only slicks, you have streetable (and more appropriate for lower temperatures) Toyos.
I'm saving up for my roll cage right now, but once that's in, my car should be ready to go. I'll be running stock suspension for a while, until I can afford something better, so I might just drive in a few of your events - while I'm still legal. And, I more than welcome you to come drive in our events. More driving = more fun, right? Our next event is May 23 @ Laguna Seca. There is a *strong* possibility of doing a 2.5 hr enduro that weekend, so bring a codriver, and if my car's done, then I'll see you ON the track!
Chris
03-13-2003, 05:19 AM
#37
Nordschleife Master
I must say, everything sounds great, and I am very pleased with the safety precautions involved.
Hopefully, I'll be able to at least attend some events, and eventually race.
You all have fun, and congrats, Tim!
- Julie
Just working on getting that car...944 N/A? 951? Time will tell...or maybe both (move the damn RX7, and that Eclipse outta the garage!)
Hopefully, I'll be able to at least attend some events, and eventually race.
You all have fun, and congrats, Tim!
- Julie
Just working on getting that car...944 N/A? 951? Time will tell...or maybe both (move the damn RX7, and that Eclipse outta the garage!)
03-13-2003, 11:23 AM
#38
Race Director
Chris,
Let me jump in here and make some comments about racing and the 944.
Rules,
The 944 driver's cup rules were taken word-for-word from NASA 944-spec rules. I know this because in many places you guy neglected to even adjust some the quirkyness of Dan webb's wording. So you got the "free exhaust" rule from US. 944-spec has always allowed free exhausts. In fact I ran my car for 2 races with a straight pipe (no cat or muffler) and that was a major reason to NOT run with spec-944 here lead by Joe Stubblefield. My car was not legal for them.
Tires.
The reason we went with a spec tire and the Toyo in particular was due to upfront cost, longevity, consistancy and commanlity. Simply put a spec tire eliminates the advantage of buying an fancy tire. Everyone is on the same rubber. Tire cost is low, life is long (7-8 track days) per set and they are very consistant over the run and life of the tire. This consistancy is important to keep costs down and foucs in on the on track racing. As side note they can also driven to and from the track on the street.
Drivers.
Yes many drivers have come from the Autocross and DE ranks. Some are usining this as a stepping stone to other places. Other just want to go out and race where it does not break the bank. This is our basic mission. Cheap fun racing. Minimal prep keeps costs down and cars even. This mean that even low budget guys can win and it is really more about driver ability more than what he can spend. Modifications that are allowed are geared toward those that make the cars safe and fun to drive. Absolute speed is not really all that important. If you are going two wide in to a corner battling your friend does it matter if of you are going 60 mph or 90 mph? Personally I fell you can have fun in 944-spec car if you a new driver or a pro-driver who does not want to spend big bucks.
Two Series.
Chris.. Tim is right. Two series are bad to have.
The reason is that it split fields and drivers. Back in August of 2002 we had one series 944-spec under NASA. Sometime in that month us drivers learned of split between out two founders, Dan Webb and Joe Stubblefield. From this time we have had two nearly identical series. Somoe drivers have choosed to go to races in both others have selected only one. All of this puts splits in the group of drivers and I will admit impacts the comraderie of the group. It also makes field smaller since few guys have the budget to run all the events of both groups.
Personally I have really wondered why you and Derrek have decided to start a rival series to Tim just after he decided to start one. Orginally Tim want to have his own series, but he found the value in linking with group that had similar vision. He decided to "not reinvent the wheel". This in my mind was smart decision as well as one that showed that his own pride was not so big as to potential impact the fun posibilities of the other drivers. He could have still done his own thing for the shear pride, but instead looked at what would be best for a group drivers who just wnat to have fun. I am completly at a loss as to why you and Derrek find the need to start a rival even before 944-spec in California has even gotten off the ground. Here in Phoenix the vision was for one series. The failed due to personallites after a serious effort to have one series was begun. I believe both camps would rather there be one series than two. To me it seems crazy to start that right now when you guys have so little understanding of the details of how 944-spec racing under these rules will turn out. If after 1 or 2 year you say these rules suck and we don't like the way 944-spec operates and have been unsucessful in changing it THEN I feel you guys would be ok in starting a rival. But doing it before it even beings just seems like disruptive rather than productive.
Sorry to rant like this, but I feel stronly about the two series thing and was hopeing that you guys could be immune to it.
Let me jump in here and make some comments about racing and the 944.
Rules,
The 944 driver's cup rules were taken word-for-word from NASA 944-spec rules. I know this because in many places you guy neglected to even adjust some the quirkyness of Dan webb's wording. So you got the "free exhaust" rule from US. 944-spec has always allowed free exhausts. In fact I ran my car for 2 races with a straight pipe (no cat or muffler) and that was a major reason to NOT run with spec-944 here lead by Joe Stubblefield. My car was not legal for them.
Tires.
The reason we went with a spec tire and the Toyo in particular was due to upfront cost, longevity, consistancy and commanlity. Simply put a spec tire eliminates the advantage of buying an fancy tire. Everyone is on the same rubber. Tire cost is low, life is long (7-8 track days) per set and they are very consistant over the run and life of the tire. This consistancy is important to keep costs down and foucs in on the on track racing. As side note they can also driven to and from the track on the street.
Drivers.
Yes many drivers have come from the Autocross and DE ranks. Some are usining this as a stepping stone to other places. Other just want to go out and race where it does not break the bank. This is our basic mission. Cheap fun racing. Minimal prep keeps costs down and cars even. This mean that even low budget guys can win and it is really more about driver ability more than what he can spend. Modifications that are allowed are geared toward those that make the cars safe and fun to drive. Absolute speed is not really all that important. If you are going two wide in to a corner battling your friend does it matter if of you are going 60 mph or 90 mph? Personally I fell you can have fun in 944-spec car if you a new driver or a pro-driver who does not want to spend big bucks.
Two Series.
Chris.. Tim is right. Two series are bad to have.
The reason is that it split fields and drivers. Back in August of 2002 we had one series 944-spec under NASA. Sometime in that month us drivers learned of split between out two founders, Dan Webb and Joe Stubblefield. From this time we have had two nearly identical series. Somoe drivers have choosed to go to races in both others have selected only one. All of this puts splits in the group of drivers and I will admit impacts the comraderie of the group. It also makes field smaller since few guys have the budget to run all the events of both groups.
Personally I have really wondered why you and Derrek have decided to start a rival series to Tim just after he decided to start one. Orginally Tim want to have his own series, but he found the value in linking with group that had similar vision. He decided to "not reinvent the wheel". This in my mind was smart decision as well as one that showed that his own pride was not so big as to potential impact the fun posibilities of the other drivers. He could have still done his own thing for the shear pride, but instead looked at what would be best for a group drivers who just wnat to have fun. I am completly at a loss as to why you and Derrek find the need to start a rival even before 944-spec in California has even gotten off the ground. Here in Phoenix the vision was for one series. The failed due to personallites after a serious effort to have one series was begun. I believe both camps would rather there be one series than two. To me it seems crazy to start that right now when you guys have so little understanding of the details of how 944-spec racing under these rules will turn out. If after 1 or 2 year you say these rules suck and we don't like the way 944-spec operates and have been unsucessful in changing it THEN I feel you guys would be ok in starting a rival. But doing it before it even beings just seems like disruptive rather than productive.
Sorry to rant like this, but I feel stronly about the two series thing and was hopeing that you guys could be immune to it.
03-15-2003, 01:28 AM
#40
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the congrats, Julie from Orange County! You know I try hard when I drive. Fontana was just grand. Can't wait to get back there with the car in proper fighting trim just to see how much quicker I can hustle it around that big 2.88 mile track.The sheep skins and jack were sold last night. But the bra is still available. Hope you find a car soon.
See you on the 15th of April at Anderson's BBQ shindig?
Tim Comeau
Black 924S # 22
See you on the 15th of April at Anderson's BBQ shindig?
Tim Comeau
Black 924S # 22
03-16-2003, 12:00 PM
#42
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Happy (premature?) Birthday, Chris. How many times have you been around our Sun?
We had 3 944-spec racers at the autocross in the rain on Saturday. Next AX on the 29th, we should have at least 5. Man, are we lucky to have that huge Qualcomm stadium parking lot!
Tim Comeau
Black 924S # 22
We had 3 944-spec racers at the autocross in the rain on Saturday. Next AX on the 29th, we should have at least 5. Man, are we lucky to have that huge Qualcomm stadium parking lot!
Tim Comeau
Black 924S # 22
03-16-2003, 11:49 PM
#43
Race Director
Guys AMP ROCKS.
We just ran the new Arizona Motorsports Park 2.25 mile track and it was really fun. Saturday we ran in the dry with 9 944-spec cars taking the green. Sunday we all stayed and we got a chance to try out our windshield wipers. The rain you got saturday we got sunday. It was my first and most guys first drives in the rain. A real blast.
BTW I really like the Toyo RA-1. All day saturday I ran the tire I ran in Feb. I thought they be dead, but after 8 track days and races they seen to be good for more and still fast!
Sunday I ran my full tread toyo in the rain and they worked great even when the track had 1/2 inch deep sheet of water!
Next Arizona 944-spec race = April 12,13 at AMP!
We just ran the new Arizona Motorsports Park 2.25 mile track and it was really fun. Saturday we ran in the dry with 9 944-spec cars taking the green. Sunday we all stayed and we got a chance to try out our windshield wipers. The rain you got saturday we got sunday. It was my first and most guys first drives in the rain. A real blast.
BTW I really like the Toyo RA-1. All day saturday I ran the tire I ran in Feb. I thought they be dead, but after 8 track days and races they seen to be good for more and still fast!
Sunday I ran my full tread toyo in the rain and they worked great even when the track had 1/2 inch deep sheet of water!
Next Arizona 944-spec race = April 12,13 at AMP!
03-17-2003, 11:17 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
M758,
You guys looked like you were having a great time, I know I did. Sorry I didn't get to look you up, forgot to check your car# before leaving in the morning. I ran HPDE in the white RSA #53. The track was phenominal. What kinds of lap times were you putting down? I didn't stick around for Sunday, no rain tires.
I was blasting down the back straight and heard a rumble comming up from behind...I look in the rearview for a GT3 monster, nothing...and then a F-15 blasts overhead, I almost drove into the kitty litter!...
I'm getting a 944spec (or is it a spec944) effort together. It is too bad to hear about the dissention in the racer ranks (I heard it at the track as well
...) It's hard enough to get a critical mass for a spec series, let alone two different ones. Hopefully it will all come together, I am looking for as many opportunities for seat time as possible.
See you at the track... <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />
You guys looked like you were having a great time, I know I did. Sorry I didn't get to look you up, forgot to check your car# before leaving in the morning. I ran HPDE in the white RSA #53. The track was phenominal. What kinds of lap times were you putting down? I didn't stick around for Sunday, no rain tires.
I was blasting down the back straight and heard a rumble comming up from behind...I look in the rearview for a GT3 monster, nothing...and then a F-15 blasts overhead, I almost drove into the kitty litter!...
I'm getting a 944spec (or is it a spec944) effort together. It is too bad to hear about the dissention in the racer ranks (I heard it at the track as well
...) It's hard enough to get a critical mass for a spec series, let alone two different ones. Hopefully it will all come together, I am looking for as many opportunities for seat time as possible.See you at the track... <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />
03-18-2003, 10:37 AM
#45
Race Director
J Richard
944-spec time to beat is 1:56.3 for qualifying and 1:57.0 in the race.
With reguards to the split. I have told many people this. If you want to race these are great cars to do it with. We have a great group of guys. Nearly all of us are have fun and racing. There are 4 local bodies we can race with and really feel that we can have fun anywhere. Be it NASA, ProAutoSports, ASRA, or even SCCA. So don't worry so much about what group to run with. Build your car and then drive with guys and on the tracks you have the most fun with.
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
Next track days April 12-13 at AMP! Can't Wait <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />
944-spec time to beat is 1:56.3 for qualifying and 1:57.0 in the race.
With reguards to the split. I have told many people this. If you want to race these are great cars to do it with. We have a great group of guys. Nearly all of us are have fun and racing. There are 4 local bodies we can race with and really feel that we can have fun anywhere. Be it NASA, ProAutoSports, ASRA, or even SCCA. So don't worry so much about what group to run with. Build your car and then drive with guys and on the tracks you have the most fun with.
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
Next track days April 12-13 at AMP! Can't Wait <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />