concours...how far?
10-02-2005, 06:58 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
concours...how far?
if one wanted to create a 'concours' 944 to enter in competitions, how obsessive are they in regards to the car being 'original'?
If you install the updated Turbo water pump, is that 'unoriginal' and thus points off? Same for updated clutch without ribber center.
I'm looking to replace a stone chipped front windshield and am seeking one with the original 'Sekert' glass, with etched Sekert logos and all.
And as posted before, my car came with the 'Thermo Guard Protected' sticker on the drivers side rear window- was this common?? I have never seen another 944 with the Thermo Guard sticker.
...and....in regards to a repaint, is there ANY way to have door dings and dents repaired WITHOUT using any bondo or filler? From what I have researched, it's nearly impossible. And what of the 'overspray' from the factory paint job? I have read about classic restorations of Spyders and such where they were careful to preserve the overspray....and I assume that in order to be fully accurate I would want to avoid modern paints and clearcoats and go with...what? Enamel?
Obsessive? Definately. I'm already having a difficult time figuring out how to find original Sliverknit carpet and how to repair the paint strip on the rear hatch glass using the EXACT type of original paint used by the factory.
Even in regards to the hood insulation I am finding that the 'matching' left and right pads are no longer available...seems they switched to two different patters some time in the past for the L / R pads.
What tires were typically original on mid-80's 944s? if I remember correctly, they were Bridgestone RE 88's....little chance of finding reproductions of those.
Any corrections to any of this or advice is welcomed....are there any concoursers out there?
For me, it's not so much that I want to keep my 944 q-tip clean or amass trophies, but rather I want to preserve the car EXACTLY as it came off the assempbly line- the car is a family car with sentimental value.
1985.5 944, bone stock, LY7U 'SteinGrau' with Grey/ Beige interior, Porsche lettered cloth inserts, - 70K miles...always garaged....2nd set of tires!
If you install the updated Turbo water pump, is that 'unoriginal' and thus points off? Same for updated clutch without ribber center.
I'm looking to replace a stone chipped front windshield and am seeking one with the original 'Sekert' glass, with etched Sekert logos and all.
And as posted before, my car came with the 'Thermo Guard Protected' sticker on the drivers side rear window- was this common?? I have never seen another 944 with the Thermo Guard sticker.
...and....in regards to a repaint, is there ANY way to have door dings and dents repaired WITHOUT using any bondo or filler? From what I have researched, it's nearly impossible. And what of the 'overspray' from the factory paint job? I have read about classic restorations of Spyders and such where they were careful to preserve the overspray....and I assume that in order to be fully accurate I would want to avoid modern paints and clearcoats and go with...what? Enamel?
Obsessive? Definately. I'm already having a difficult time figuring out how to find original Sliverknit carpet and how to repair the paint strip on the rear hatch glass using the EXACT type of original paint used by the factory.
Even in regards to the hood insulation I am finding that the 'matching' left and right pads are no longer available...seems they switched to two different patters some time in the past for the L / R pads.
What tires were typically original on mid-80's 944s? if I remember correctly, they were Bridgestone RE 88's....little chance of finding reproductions of those.
Any corrections to any of this or advice is welcomed....are there any concoursers out there?
For me, it's not so much that I want to keep my 944 q-tip clean or amass trophies, but rather I want to preserve the car EXACTLY as it came off the assempbly line- the car is a family car with sentimental value.
1985.5 944, bone stock, LY7U 'SteinGrau' with Grey/ Beige interior, Porsche lettered cloth inserts, - 70K miles...always garaged....2nd set of tires!
10-05-2005, 02:29 AM
#2
Race Car
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 4,220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow, well...it depends. When you say concours...do you actually intend to show the car, and if so in what kind of class?
I show my car in concours and not everything is original. I have clear turn signals, aftermarket exhaust, aluminum door sills, porsche crest shifter cap, etc... I have never had points taken off for any of that. Then again, i do not compete in a die-hard preservation class. I personally do not recommend a car that is driver to be in such a class. It would require cleaning EVERYTHING spotless including the drivetrain and suspension from underneath.
As far as tires and stuff...you are better off with what is out there today. Tires have come a long way. I've seen cars with the original tire set from the factory...those are cars that are NEVER driven though.
This all really depends what you will do with the car.
I show my car in concours and not everything is original. I have clear turn signals, aftermarket exhaust, aluminum door sills, porsche crest shifter cap, etc... I have never had points taken off for any of that. Then again, i do not compete in a die-hard preservation class. I personally do not recommend a car that is driver to be in such a class. It would require cleaning EVERYTHING spotless including the drivetrain and suspension from underneath.
As far as tires and stuff...you are better off with what is out there today. Tires have come a long way. I've seen cars with the original tire set from the factory...those are cars that are NEVER driven though.
This all really depends what you will do with the car.
10-05-2005, 01:06 PM
#3
There are paintless dent removal companies such as Dent Wizard that can do incredible work. It's all down to the talent of the tech, but I've had dents removed with no sign that any damage was done-and I've recommended many people to my guy, and they all come away amazed. Talk to your local dealer and find out who they use.
10-05-2005, 06:21 PM
#4
Race Car
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 4,220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah ive used dent wizards on many occasions. Flawless work if you have a dent that is able to be removed by their procedures. If you have anything bent, torn, creased, or really deeply damaged, it will need something more than paintless dent removal to fix.
10-06-2005, 03:34 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
I have about 8 1st place trophies for Showing my turbo and GTS at local events. Depending on were you are thinking of showing you car will dictate the criteria used to judge it. The easiest to describe are the PCA events. I am in THE NNJR region and we are fortunate enough to have judges that judge on the National level.
I will try to make this simple. To begin with original is only an issue to a point. If it enhances the car or uses euroepean clear lenses etc, it will not be judged against you unless you are at the Parade level preservation class. If it is obviously wrong than it will be looked at in a negative way. that depends on the Judge.
You need to understand that judging is based on a timed point system. For Novice class (which is were you will begin) the judges have one Minute to walk around the car and look at the overall appearance of the car. Then they have 3 min to look the car over in individual quadrants, Exterior, Interior, Luggage and Engine/undercarriage. Most local events do not judge engine and undercarriage unless requested. Each section has a series of areas that are addressed. Such as tires and Brakes, brake dust is the biggest soar spot because they almost always find some. The interiors are checked for lint, dirt, clean glass, headliner etc. The exterior is judged for fit and finish of panels, stone chips, color match of paint etc.
I do not have the forms which spell out all the individual areas and point values here but they can be easily obtained and most PCA chapters offer workshop on what to look for and how to clean it. Sometimes you can spend hours cleaning something that is only worth a few points while missing other areas that are worth much more.
I recommend getting involved with your local PCA chapter and seeing what they offer for advice. Then clean your car, enter it in novice class and let them show you were you need to improve. It is a great learning experience and helps you learn how to keep you car looking new and lasting longer.
The thing about Concours events is that no matter how often you do it there are always things that someone else sees that you never thought of and would never cross your mind to think of. So it is always a learning experience. One I wish more Porsche owners would get involved in.
Good Luck
I will try to make this simple. To begin with original is only an issue to a point. If it enhances the car or uses euroepean clear lenses etc, it will not be judged against you unless you are at the Parade level preservation class. If it is obviously wrong than it will be looked at in a negative way. that depends on the Judge.
You need to understand that judging is based on a timed point system. For Novice class (which is were you will begin) the judges have one Minute to walk around the car and look at the overall appearance of the car. Then they have 3 min to look the car over in individual quadrants, Exterior, Interior, Luggage and Engine/undercarriage. Most local events do not judge engine and undercarriage unless requested. Each section has a series of areas that are addressed. Such as tires and Brakes, brake dust is the biggest soar spot because they almost always find some. The interiors are checked for lint, dirt, clean glass, headliner etc. The exterior is judged for fit and finish of panels, stone chips, color match of paint etc.
I do not have the forms which spell out all the individual areas and point values here but they can be easily obtained and most PCA chapters offer workshop on what to look for and how to clean it. Sometimes you can spend hours cleaning something that is only worth a few points while missing other areas that are worth much more.
I recommend getting involved with your local PCA chapter and seeing what they offer for advice. Then clean your car, enter it in novice class and let them show you were you need to improve. It is a great learning experience and helps you learn how to keep you car looking new and lasting longer.
The thing about Concours events is that no matter how often you do it there are always things that someone else sees that you never thought of and would never cross your mind to think of. So it is always a learning experience. One I wish more Porsche owners would get involved in.
Good Luck
10-08-2005, 01:16 AM
#7
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thanks Cobalt!
As I said, I mostly want to preserve my 944 as an 'EXACT' model for sentimental reasons as well as for the challenge of it. ( not to be rude, but anyone can slap all kinds of mods on a car, making one flawlessly stock is almost more of a challenge....albeit kinda 'obssesive' , some would say '**** retentive' !).
I'd like the car to be a perfect example of what that model / year 944 was like when it came off the showroom floor- not lowered, not chipped, not updated, original spec & brand tires even if possible )...doubt there are many out there like that. ( sort of like Nissan did with some first year 240Z's as a promotion for the release of the 350Z ).
I'm finding the hardest part to obtain is the original Sekert glass. ( mine has a stone chip or two ).
The next unobtainium are the various decals- the engine compartment ones, the decals that list the model options, and even the little 'unleaded fuel only' decal on the instrument cluster. I'll probably have to pay to have these reproduced.
As to a respray, what was the original paint? Enamel? That's going to be a tough one, getting a modern paint shop to NOT use modern techiniques or materials. And getting them to preserve the factory 'overspray' as well.
As I said, I mostly want to preserve my 944 as an 'EXACT' model for sentimental reasons as well as for the challenge of it. ( not to be rude, but anyone can slap all kinds of mods on a car, making one flawlessly stock is almost more of a challenge....albeit kinda 'obssesive' , some would say '**** retentive' !).
I'd like the car to be a perfect example of what that model / year 944 was like when it came off the showroom floor- not lowered, not chipped, not updated, original spec & brand tires even if possible )...doubt there are many out there like that. ( sort of like Nissan did with some first year 240Z's as a promotion for the release of the 350Z ).
I'm finding the hardest part to obtain is the original Sekert glass. ( mine has a stone chip or two ).
The next unobtainium are the various decals- the engine compartment ones, the decals that list the model options, and even the little 'unleaded fuel only' decal on the instrument cluster. I'll probably have to pay to have these reproduced.
As to a respray, what was the original paint? Enamel? That's going to be a tough one, getting a modern paint shop to NOT use modern techiniques or materials. And getting them to preserve the factory 'overspray' as well.
Trending Topics
10-08-2005, 01:15 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
I understand it's a family car with sentimental reasons behind it's restoration... but I would seriously consider not doing this. You can pick up an absolutely mint, no excuses, 5k original mile 84 on Ebay right now for 15k - maybe for less if he doesn't get that bid. 5k original miles! In order to pimp a shop to do what you would like them to, you're going to spend at least a 1/3 of that on the new paint job on your car alone. Likewise, replacing glass? stickers? It's never, ever going to be exactly correct. There aren't shops for the 944 (like there are for the 356 for example) that are going to have the talent, patience and model-knowledge to ever get the car even remotely close in originality to the 5k unmolested example listed above - especially when they will consider the car itself to be "just a $5000 car" in the first place.
I don't mean to be negative, because I think what you are trying to do here is neat and very original (no pun intended). But I would think logically. You are going to dump money into this car in an attempt to reverse what can't really be undone for any price that does not approach lunacy.
Buy a car that is low-mileage and show-ready with only minimal expense and cleaning. Drive and maintain your family car with sentimental value. Things will work out better that way in the end.
Micah
I don't mean to be negative, because I think what you are trying to do here is neat and very original (no pun intended). But I would think logically. You are going to dump money into this car in an attempt to reverse what can't really be undone for any price that does not approach lunacy.
Buy a car that is low-mileage and show-ready with only minimal expense and cleaning. Drive and maintain your family car with sentimental value. Things will work out better that way in the end.
Micah
10-09-2005, 10:49 AM
#9
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Blue S2
Nice response Cobalt! I feel your color contributes to your wins! Cobalt is usually one of the most striking colors at any event.
. I am curious about your paint code. You have a different code listed than mine. Mine is listed as 37U. I will admit that not all Concours events are run equally. I actually, unofficially won a peoples choice award for an event I did not even enter. This event was not a true Concours. It was more like a simple buff and show peoples choice. Not very technical.
The NNJR events are very fair and believe you me color and vehicle only pay a very small percentage of the overall score. These guys judge strictly on the required categories. They may have a preference on which car they like best but that has little to do with the Judging. They are very fair and in fact they have been tougher on me at times because the car stands out and by experience alone they let little slide.
The exterior consists of 100 possible points:
25 pts "Condition of body, fit of panels, no rust or dents"
25 pts "Condition and preparation of paint, deduct for chips, wax build up on edges"
10 pts "Wiper arms and blades, air grills, antenna"
18 pts "Front and rear bumpers, deduct for bugs, chips, damage"
5 pts "Condition of lenses, lamps"
5 pts "Outer surface glass"
12 pts " Outer wheels and tires (brake dust, condition of wheels)
The last one they always get me on. No matter how much I clean the wheels those 40 bolts on the Speedline wheels always get me in trouble. I drive the car 35 miles to the event and although the car was spotless before I left it gets quite dirty on the way to the show. The cross drilled rotors hold a lot of brake dust and no mater what you do driving the car gets brake dust everywhere.
The interior consists of 75 points.
20 pts "Upholstery of front seats, jump seats, condition, cleanliness"
8 pts " Door panels, side pockets, glove box'
7 pts "Condition of headliner, visors'
18 pts "Floor covering: carpet, mat, tunnel, seat rails"
5 pts "Hinges, door jambs, latch areas'
10 pts " Interior glass and mirror"
7 pts "instrument panel, Steering wheel, gauges'
I usually get a perfect score although each time they give me one thing. Last time I had lint from my rag on the felt strip that goes around the upper side of the door jamb. Only a few specs but if it happens again they will nail me for it.
The Storage area consists of 50 points
10 pts " Underside of lid"
5 pts " Upper and lower latches"
10 pts "Condition of carpet, liner, mat etc. (depending on model)'
12 pts "Overall condition of trunk, tire well, washer unit, fuse block"
5 pts "Battery cables, clamps'
8 pts "Tool Kit, spare tire, jack"
This can be a tough area because each judge looks at different things. Last time I had a point deducted for dirt in the wheel well area. I had cleaned the area but I guess I placed the carpet down on some dirt, (almost not enough to notice. It fell off the carpet and onto the spare tire and ABS pump cover) If you had seen the amount of dirt you would laugh.
All in all I have shown both the turbo and the GTS and both cars I receive very high scores. The last was my worst with 222.5 out of 225 points. I had autocrossed the car the weekend before and spent my entire day Saturday repairing the damage and time removing the black marks left by the cone I hit at 65 mph.
The GTS is just as clean and have been told I could probably enter it on the National level in the preservation class and possibly win. Unfortunately I have not owned it long enough. Maybe in a few years.
So as my wife says I am a bit **** retentive about my cars. But I still drive them 3-4k miles a year, autocross them and keep them clean enough to win Concours events with very high scores. I guess you can say with the scores I get the cars are a 9.8 out of 10
They can be made 10 out of 10 but that requires a lot more work than you can imagine. I would also agree 100% with what Micah wrote. I spent a ton of money restoring a 1974 914 and in the end it was a real beauty but I finally decided to sell it. Although I recouped my investment I lost about $18k in labor. Nobody wants to pay for labor of love. I recommend enjoying the car and taking it to the events and listen to the advice given by the judges. There is a lot to learn about cleaning your car and things that do damage that you would never think of. Start off slow and decide what it is worth to you.
As you can see a true Concours has only so much to do with a pretty paint job. It covers so much more and is not an easy task to bring it to the level you are thinking of.
Good Luck
10-10-2005, 12:28 AM
#10
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I would seriously consider not doing this. You can pick up an absolutely mint, no excuses, 5k original mile 84 on Ebay right now for 15k -"
But my first lay never rode in THAT car!
...and it wasn't the car that my father drove 50 miles to work through ice and snow in order to be able to buy as an anniversary present for his wife....and it wasn't the car that I forgot to set the handbrake on back when I was 25 and it nearly rolled into traffic on Westheimer in Houston. ( you get the point )
" It's never, ever going to be exactly correct. "
Maybe so, but it's going to be as 'correct' and exact as this particular car CAN be. ( it's pretty close now, left it at the shop for a thermo switch and the shop owner told me that all the 911 owners coming by were ooing and ahhing over it- said they'd never seen that color combo before...or such a near-perfect interior- especially one that light in color )
"There aren't shops for the 944 (like there are for the 356 for example) that are going to have the talent, patience and model-knowledge to ever get the car even remotely close in originality to the 5k unmolested example listed above "
True, but thats the challenge. Anyone with some extra dough can plop down 15 k and have a near perfect car....I see it as a labor of love....and a 'process', in fact, I'm already dreading when it's 'done'. The fun is searching through parts catalogs and plotting and planning my next step. ( just replaced a perfectly good radiator for the heck of it- it was looking a bit tired and a new one couldn't hurt ).
No, it will never be a high-value collectable- but neither will any 240z yet Nissan went through ALOT of trouble to perfectly restore several examples- obviously for marketing purposes but out of sentiment and nostalgia mostly.
( http://autos.msn.com/as/minishow/art...4&src=minishow )
" But I would think logically. You are going to dump money into this car in an attempt to reverse what can't really be undone for any price that does not approach lunacy. "
You are correct, it's insane....but I got nothing better to spend my cash on...and the 'lunacy' is what makes it interesting.
I DO appreciate your very solid advice...and I concede that it's borderline psychotic to even try, but I'm already committed emotionally.
I'm going to visit a high-end graphics shop tommorrow and see how close they can come to reproducing the 'unleaded fuel only' decals from the dash and rear hatch. ( which is a perfect example of how lunacy such as mine can benefit everyone- if they are able to pull it off, I'll have 50 or so reproductions to sell at cost to other obsessive 944 owners! )
I would imagine that they called the first guy who attempted to perfectly restore a 356 Carrerra a lunatic as well! ( did you see the article on the guys who built a 904 from a mold? )
No offense taken to any slaps of reality.
Wish me luck....see ya at Hershey in 2010 !!!
But my first lay never rode in THAT car!
...and it wasn't the car that my father drove 50 miles to work through ice and snow in order to be able to buy as an anniversary present for his wife....and it wasn't the car that I forgot to set the handbrake on back when I was 25 and it nearly rolled into traffic on Westheimer in Houston. ( you get the point )
" It's never, ever going to be exactly correct. "
Maybe so, but it's going to be as 'correct' and exact as this particular car CAN be. ( it's pretty close now, left it at the shop for a thermo switch and the shop owner told me that all the 911 owners coming by were ooing and ahhing over it- said they'd never seen that color combo before...or such a near-perfect interior- especially one that light in color )
"There aren't shops for the 944 (like there are for the 356 for example) that are going to have the talent, patience and model-knowledge to ever get the car even remotely close in originality to the 5k unmolested example listed above "
True, but thats the challenge. Anyone with some extra dough can plop down 15 k and have a near perfect car....I see it as a labor of love....and a 'process', in fact, I'm already dreading when it's 'done'. The fun is searching through parts catalogs and plotting and planning my next step. ( just replaced a perfectly good radiator for the heck of it- it was looking a bit tired and a new one couldn't hurt ).
No, it will never be a high-value collectable- but neither will any 240z yet Nissan went through ALOT of trouble to perfectly restore several examples- obviously for marketing purposes but out of sentiment and nostalgia mostly.
( http://autos.msn.com/as/minishow/art...4&src=minishow )
" But I would think logically. You are going to dump money into this car in an attempt to reverse what can't really be undone for any price that does not approach lunacy. "
You are correct, it's insane....but I got nothing better to spend my cash on...and the 'lunacy' is what makes it interesting.
I DO appreciate your very solid advice...and I concede that it's borderline psychotic to even try, but I'm already committed emotionally.
I'm going to visit a high-end graphics shop tommorrow and see how close they can come to reproducing the 'unleaded fuel only' decals from the dash and rear hatch. ( which is a perfect example of how lunacy such as mine can benefit everyone- if they are able to pull it off, I'll have 50 or so reproductions to sell at cost to other obsessive 944 owners! )
I would imagine that they called the first guy who attempted to perfectly restore a 356 Carrerra a lunatic as well! ( did you see the article on the guys who built a 904 from a mold? )
No offense taken to any slaps of reality.
Wish me luck....see ya at Hershey in 2010 !!!
10-10-2005, 10:22 AM
#11
Rennlist Member
I totally understand were your coming from. I held onto my 79 SC for 19 years because of sentimental reasons. I finally decided one day it was time to move on. I sold the car for much less then I should have but figured it was too painful to try to hold out, knowing eventually I would change my mind.
I did what you plan on doing with my 914 and this car had no sentimental value to me. It can be done but takes a lot of work. If you can do most of it yourself it is not so expensive, the only thing you will not recoupe is all the time (labor of love) that you put into it. If it makes you happy go for it. It appears you know what you are getting into. I will say that I was convinced that I would never sell these 2 cars but I finally broke down and did.
The picture of the Black car is the modified SC that I had for 19 years and looked better when I sold it than the day I bought it. The 914 was a total mess when I got it and if you saw the before pictures you would be amazed. I am sure what you plan on doing was not as extensive as what I did with the 914.
BTW there are web sites out there like this one http://www.porschedecals.com/index.htm
that may be able to help you with decals.
I didn't have the luxury of the internet when I restored the 914 back in the mid 90's. I am sure it easier to find what you need today then it was back then. So if I could do it with a 20 year old car at that time I am sure you can do it today.
Good Luck.
I did what you plan on doing with my 914 and this car had no sentimental value to me. It can be done but takes a lot of work. If you can do most of it yourself it is not so expensive, the only thing you will not recoupe is all the time (labor of love) that you put into it. If it makes you happy go for it. It appears you know what you are getting into. I will say that I was convinced that I would never sell these 2 cars but I finally broke down and did.
The picture of the Black car is the modified SC that I had for 19 years and looked better when I sold it than the day I bought it. The 914 was a total mess when I got it and if you saw the before pictures you would be amazed. I am sure what you plan on doing was not as extensive as what I did with the 914.
BTW there are web sites out there like this one http://www.porschedecals.com/index.htm
that may be able to help you with decals.
I didn't have the luxury of the internet when I restored the 914 back in the mid 90's. I am sure it easier to find what you need today then it was back then. So if I could do it with a 20 year old car at that time I am sure you can do it today.
Good Luck.
