Need HELP if I'm going to make it to SITM
06-01-2017, 12:46 PM
#16
Developer
Yes, we did your rear suspension from the bottom during the 6-speed install.
However, given what you have found in the front, I'd check the lower link pin torque (103 lb ft) and the 6 nuts on top of the shocks in the hatch area. Numbers 9 and 5 in this picture.
Probably fine, but why not check?
However, given what you have found in the front, I'd check the lower link pin torque (103 lb ft) and the 6 nuts on top of the shocks in the hatch area. Numbers 9 and 5 in this picture.
Probably fine, but why not check?
06-01-2017, 12:52 PM
#17
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Good catch on the loose fasteners. The loose bolts on the UCA bushings will allow caster to change a lot, maybe to the point where caster would go negative under braking. The car would be a real handful at that point.
For street driving on modern tires:
Front caster is spec'd at 3º 30' with a +30' allowance. Depending on your wheel offsets and tires sizes, you might want to go to the end of that range at 4º. Most important is that both sides are exactly the same, and that may limit where your settings end up. On my later car, there's a narrow range between 3º 45' and 4º where I can get both sides the same.
Front camber is spec'd at -30' +/- 10'. Modern tires like a little more camber than what was available on the cars when originally sold. Try for -45'. Again, both sides need to be exactly the same.
Front toe is spec'd at -15' +/- 5' TOTAL toe. This spec is for cars at factory ride height (where the lower control arm is exactly level, center of rear lower bushings at exactly the same height as the lower balljoint pivot), where the toe change with suspension movement is minimal. For cars that are lowered either from sagging springs or adjustment, a little more toe-in may keep the front tires alive a bit longer. Go to the -20' limit if your car falls into the "lower than 170mm" category as most seem to. A little toe out "feels" better, as it offers sharper initial turn-in feel. But the inner ribs of the tires will quickly go away in normal street driving without a tiny amount of toe-in. The correct value will feel almost numb on center. For those like you who have rear- and mid-engine cars in the fleet, the contrast in apparent on-center "feel" will be most noticeable.
On your rear settings, that "8" is a typo. Go to -45' to -1º rear camber with modern tires if you want to take advantage of them. If you don't push the car hard much, stay with the factory settings. Again, getting both sides the same is critical.
For street driving on modern tires:
Front caster is spec'd at 3º 30' with a +30' allowance. Depending on your wheel offsets and tires sizes, you might want to go to the end of that range at 4º. Most important is that both sides are exactly the same, and that may limit where your settings end up. On my later car, there's a narrow range between 3º 45' and 4º where I can get both sides the same.
Front camber is spec'd at -30' +/- 10'. Modern tires like a little more camber than what was available on the cars when originally sold. Try for -45'. Again, both sides need to be exactly the same.
Front toe is spec'd at -15' +/- 5' TOTAL toe. This spec is for cars at factory ride height (where the lower control arm is exactly level, center of rear lower bushings at exactly the same height as the lower balljoint pivot), where the toe change with suspension movement is minimal. For cars that are lowered either from sagging springs or adjustment, a little more toe-in may keep the front tires alive a bit longer. Go to the -20' limit if your car falls into the "lower than 170mm" category as most seem to. A little toe out "feels" better, as it offers sharper initial turn-in feel. But the inner ribs of the tires will quickly go away in normal street driving without a tiny amount of toe-in. The correct value will feel almost numb on center. For those like you who have rear- and mid-engine cars in the fleet, the contrast in apparent on-center "feel" will be most noticeable.
On your rear settings, that "8" is a typo. Go to -45' to -1º rear camber with modern tires if you want to take advantage of them. If you don't push the car hard much, stay with the factory settings. Again, getting both sides the same is critical.
06-01-2017, 01:11 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Gatineau, Québec, Canada
Posts: 5,177
Received 1,317 Likes
on
498 Posts
Good job Pete. 
dr bob, when you say -15' +/- 5' TOTAL toe, you mean -7.5' each side?
Not -15' each side, right?
I want to make sure I understand well.
One is half the other, so...
Thanks dr.
dr bob, when you say -15' +/- 5' TOTAL toe, you mean -7.5' each side?
Not -15' each side, right?
I want to make sure I understand well.
One is half the other, so...
Thanks dr.
06-01-2017, 03:13 PM
#19
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
06-01-2017, 03:21 PM
#20
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
If this were my car I would have the alignment tech loosen the front lower rear bolts, pull it down multiple times and re-torque them. At this point re-check all other suspension fasteners.
He's having enough issues here, why chance it?
Print this out and bring along with every alignment:
06-01-2017, 05:34 PM
#21
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
WSM spec is 15' total (sum of both wheels) toe-in with no pressure or preload on the steering or suspension. So the wheels are free-floating on freed turn plates, brakes off, etc. If you are doing a 4-wheel thrust-compensated alignment, you may or may not have that split evenly between the two wheels, particularly if there has been any frame damage. I find that on my car, with no damage history, still has a slight difference between the two sides. Guessing there are manufacturing tolerances when the tub was fab'd, reinforced some by others' discoveries related to tire vs rear fender clearances with wider wheels or spacers. Read: the rear suspension isn't always perfectly centered between the rear fenderwalls.
06-01-2017, 07:16 PM
#22
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I'm good to go!
Car is more stable and handles better than it ever has. Heading out in the morning to do the top-down drive while the weather is cooler.
Car is more stable and handles better than it ever has. Heading out in the morning to do the top-down drive while the weather is cooler.
06-01-2017, 08:43 PM
#23
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
06-01-2017, 09:11 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Gatineau, Québec, Canada
Posts: 5,177
Received 1,317 Likes
on
498 Posts
WSM spec is 15' total (sum of both wheels) toe-in with no pressure or preload on the steering or suspension. So the wheels are free-floating on freed turn plates, brakes off, etc. If you are doing a 4-wheel thrust-compensated alignment, you may or may not have that split evenly between the two wheels, particularly if there has been any frame damage. I find that on my car, with no damage history, still has a slight difference between the two sides. Guessing there are manufacturing tolerances when the tub was fab'd, reinforced some by others' discoveries related to tire vs rear fender clearances with wider wheels or spacers. Read: the rear suspension isn't always perfectly centered between the rear fenderwalls.
Very appreciated.
Thought it was -15' on each side.
I'm about to have the car aligned for a second time in two weeks.
First place lifted the car even if I told them not to do so. They told me it would not do anything. They always do that... On other cars.
I'll go to another shop (I know one) that I'm sure they wont lift the car.
Lesson learned.
SITM is a great event.
06-02-2017, 12:13 PM
#26
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thanks dr.
Very appreciated.
Thought it was -15' on each side.
I'm about to have the car aligned for a second time in two weeks.
First place lifted the car even if I told them not to do so. They told me it would not do anything. They always do that... On other cars.
I'll go to another shop (I know one) that I'm sure they wont lift the car.
Lesson learned.
Have a nice trip and a great weekend.
SITM is a great event.
Very appreciated.
Thought it was -15' on each side.
I'm about to have the car aligned for a second time in two weeks.
First place lifted the car even if I told them not to do so. They told me it would not do anything. They always do that... On other cars.
I'll go to another shop (I know one) that I'm sure they wont lift the car.
Lesson learned.
Have a nice trip and a great weekend.
SITM is a great event.
Maybe late for this episode, but...
Your maintenance logbook should include some ride-height numbers for both front and rear with suspension settled. That way, when you do some work on the suspension that deserves alignment, you'll know when the suspension is settled enough for alignment. More important, you can have your shop follow the WSM procedure that Hacker shared, and pull the front end down to that height while it's on their alignment rack before making adjustments.
There are several methods of determining ride height. My simple method uses some "calibrated" wire gauges to determine the distances between the garage floor and the measuring points in the middle of the rear bushing clamp for the lower control arm. Coat hanger wire is fine for this. One could as easily use little telescoping magnet pickup tool, and just measure the length. Or cut a set of wire gauges from the coathanger wire that fit perfectly with the car settled, and carry them with you to the alignment shop.
06-02-2017, 02:18 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Gatineau, Québec, Canada
Posts: 5,177
Received 1,317 Likes
on
498 Posts
Good advice dr.
I've been doing this (ride height numbers) since many years ago.
I put back my set of 18'' wheels on the car lately (after the bad alignment) and are now playing with ride heights.
Once it will be where it should be - around 175 front, 170 back - I'll have an alignment done on the car. The right way this time...
Thanks again.
I've been doing this (ride height numbers) since many years ago.
I put back my set of 18'' wheels on the car lately (after the bad alignment) and are now playing with ride heights.
Once it will be where it should be - around 175 front, 170 back - I'll have an alignment done on the car. The right way this time...
Thanks again.
06-02-2017, 03:36 PM
#28
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Rolled into the Best Western around 2:00 PM. Car ran and handled great, though I think the front suspension has settled a littler more than it had yesterday, so the #s may not be dead on.
Only adventure was some guy on 221 going the other way pulling out to pass without enough space for his slow-*** car. Had to essentially come to a stop in my lane for him to have enough space to make it past the car he was passing, but that's why we put on GTS brakes and slotted rotors, right
Anyway, all good and getting ready to run by the store to pick-up the party juice.
Thanks again for everyone's help and advice.
Only adventure was some guy on 221 going the other way pulling out to pass without enough space for his slow-*** car. Had to essentially come to a stop in my lane for him to have enough space to make it past the car he was passing, but that's why we put on GTS brakes and slotted rotors, right
Anyway, all good and getting ready to run by the store to pick-up the party juice.
Thanks again for everyone's help and advice.
06-02-2017, 06:34 PM
#29
Team Owner
you will find it takes about 400 miles for the suspension to find its true harmony ,
at 150 miles you will notice how much nicer it was from when you left,
at 400 you wont notice the suspension as it will be doing what it should, those are my observations.
The most commonly loose suspension bolt is the rear cross member to LCA eccentric,
this goes to 140 FT/LB
at 150 miles you will notice how much nicer it was from when you left,
at 400 you wont notice the suspension as it will be doing what it should, those are my observations.
The most commonly loose suspension bolt is the rear cross member to LCA eccentric,
this goes to 140 FT/LB
06-02-2017, 06:43 PM
#30
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
you will find it takes about 400 miles for the suspension to find its true harmony ,
at 150 miles you will notice how much nicer it was from when you left,
at 400 you wont notice the suspension as it will be doing what it should, those are my observations.
The most commonly loose suspension bolt is the rear cross member to LCA eccentric,
this goes to 140 FT/LB
at 150 miles you will notice how much nicer it was from when you left,
at 400 you wont notice the suspension as it will be doing what it should, those are my observations.
The most commonly loose suspension bolt is the rear cross member to LCA eccentric,
this goes to 140 FT/LB