strange electrical phenomenon
09-15-2016, 05:03 PM
#16
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If the car runs without the ignition relay, I suspect he didn't pull the actual ignition relay. TAKE A PICTURE of his CE panel with that relay removed, and post it here for analysis. The relay numbering scheme is not exactly intuitive. Dates to Roman times.
Post the picture please.
Post the picture please.
interesting that the X-relay didnt do anything and still allowed it to start.
09-15-2016, 06:42 PM
#17
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If the car runs without the ignition relay, I suspect he didn't pull the actual ignition relay. TAKE A PICTURE of his CE panel with that relay removed, and post it here for analysis. The relay numbering scheme is not exactly intuitive. Dates to Roman times.
Post the picture please.
Post the picture please.
Confusion over the X-bus relay and the relay in position X in the CE panel? If it really is the X-bus relay, replace it with a new 53B relay and see if the problem is solved.
Post the picture please.
09-15-2016, 09:04 PM
#18
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Ill post a picture of the panel.
thanks,
mark
09-16-2016, 02:18 PM
#20
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Mark--
Here's a marked-up copy of your panel picture, with the relays under discussion labeled for you.
Which relay did the owner remove to get the charge light to go out with key off?
Also: There's a suspicious house-wiring wire-nut peeking out from the bottom, knurled orange top showing. Suspicious. Maybe even very suspicious.
Here's a marked-up copy of your panel picture, with the relays under discussion labeled for you.
Which relay did the owner remove to get the charge light to go out with key off?
Also: There's a suspicious house-wiring wire-nut peeking out from the bottom, knurled orange top showing. Suspicious. Maybe even very suspicious.
09-16-2016, 02:55 PM
#21
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Mark--
Here's a marked-up copy of your panel picture, with the relays under discussion labeled for you.
Which relay did the owner remove to get the charge light to go out with key off?
Also: There's a suspicious house-wiring wire-nut peeking out from the bottom, knurled orange top showing. Suspicious. Maybe even very suspicious.
Here's a marked-up copy of your panel picture, with the relays under discussion labeled for you.
Which relay did the owner remove to get the charge light to go out with key off?
Also: There's a suspicious house-wiring wire-nut peeking out from the bottom, knurled orange top showing. Suspicious. Maybe even very suspicious.
wire tie was a patch for lighting issue.
sounds like ignition switch... i think that is next step
09-16-2016, 08:04 PM
#22
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Which relay? X or Ignition? If it was the X-bus relay, replace it with a new one.
The coil leads include one from the X contact on the switch, and the other goes to ground. If pulling that relay stops a backfeed of power that lights the charge light, it must be passing current backwards into the X contact of the switch.
The cheap 53B relay is obviously simple and easy to change. Certainly easier than swapping in another ignition switch.
The coil leads include one from the X contact on the switch, and the other goes to ground. If pulling that relay stops a backfeed of power that lights the charge light, it must be passing current backwards into the X contact of the switch.
The cheap 53B relay is obviously simple and easy to change. Certainly easier than swapping in another ignition switch.
09-16-2016, 08:16 PM
#23
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sorry i wasnt clearer.. the X-bus relay, didnt turn the light off, but the car would still start and run.. dont know if that is right or not. anyway, light still on no matter what relay has been pulled. the ingition relay (EZK) doesnt allow the car to start, but light still on regardless.
Which relay? X or Ignition? If it was the X-bus relay, replace it with a new one.
The coil leads include one from the X contact on the switch, and the other goes to ground. If pulling that relay stops a backfeed of power that lights the charge light, it must be passing current backwards into the X contact of the switch.
The cheap 53B relay is obviously simple and easy to change. Certainly easier than swapping in another ignition switch.
The coil leads include one from the X contact on the switch, and the other goes to ground. If pulling that relay stops a backfeed of power that lights the charge light, it must be passing current backwards into the X contact of the switch.
The cheap 53B relay is obviously simple and easy to change. Certainly easier than swapping in another ignition switch.
09-16-2016, 09:14 PM
#24
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Sorry, I misread one of your previous posts.
-- test for voltage at CE panel connection A22, with everything plugged in. This is a black-with-yellow-tracer wire from the X contact on the ignition switch. Voltage there with key in off position means a possible "leak" through the ignition switch. If you find voltage there, pull connector A and test A22 again, both the connector side and the CE panel side. If you see voltage on the CE panel side, it's feeding backwards from somewhere else towards the switch, so the problem is not the switch itself.
-- The ignition switch has another connection from the X connection to the light switch. This is also a black-with-yellow-tracer wire. This circuit finds its way through the light switch (in position 2) through connector C to the headlight relay. If you found voltage at A22 in the first test above, and still have it on the wire in the connector with the connector disconnected, lift connector C from the CE panel, and test at A22 again. If the voltage at A22 is gone, your problem is in the headlight switch.
Report back your findings please.
-- test for voltage at CE panel connection A22, with everything plugged in. This is a black-with-yellow-tracer wire from the X contact on the ignition switch. Voltage there with key in off position means a possible "leak" through the ignition switch. If you find voltage there, pull connector A and test A22 again, both the connector side and the CE panel side. If you see voltage on the CE panel side, it's feeding backwards from somewhere else towards the switch, so the problem is not the switch itself.
-- The ignition switch has another connection from the X connection to the light switch. This is also a black-with-yellow-tracer wire. This circuit finds its way through the light switch (in position 2) through connector C to the headlight relay. If you found voltage at A22 in the first test above, and still have it on the wire in the connector with the connector disconnected, lift connector C from the CE panel, and test at A22 again. If the voltage at A22 is gone, your problem is in the headlight switch.
Report back your findings please.
09-16-2016, 09:38 PM
#25
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10-06-2016, 02:16 PM
#26
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He has replaced the ignition switch.. took the alternator back to the rebuilder to makes sure that the diode was good and is now looking at the starter to see if he incorrectly connnected the wires (doesnt look likely)
it was rebuilt too, and and wondering if it's possible that it could be responsible for a leak. I only stopped by to listen to his engine run as far as water pump noise (what is normal) and didnt have time to look at much, other than the start hook up.... two big wires tied together, a small one on a single post and then of course the internal cable of the starter on the 3rd large nut , alone.
the light still is on when he pulls out the key. (charge light red, at the lower right of the dash panel)
????
it was rebuilt too, and and wondering if it's possible that it could be responsible for a leak. I only stopped by to listen to his engine run as far as water pump noise (what is normal) and didnt have time to look at much, other than the start hook up.... two big wires tied together, a small one on a single post and then of course the internal cable of the starter on the 3rd large nut , alone.
the light still is on when he pulls out the key. (charge light red, at the lower right of the dash panel)
????
Sorry, I misread one of your previous posts.
-- test for voltage at CE panel connection A22, with everything plugged in. This is a black-with-yellow-tracer wire from the X contact on the ignition switch. Voltage there with key in off position means a possible "leak" through the ignition switch. If you find voltage there, pull connector A and test A22 again, both the connector side and the CE panel side. If you see voltage on the CE panel side, it's feeding backwards from somewhere else towards the switch, so the problem is not the switch itself.
-- The ignition switch has another connection from the X connection to the light switch. This is also a black-with-yellow-tracer wire. This circuit finds its way through the light switch (in position 2) through connector C to the headlight relay. If you found voltage at A22 in the first test above, and still have it on the wire in the connector with the connector disconnected, lift connector C from the CE panel, and test at A22 again. If the voltage at A22 is gone, your problem is in the headlight switch.
Report back your findings please.
-- test for voltage at CE panel connection A22, with everything plugged in. This is a black-with-yellow-tracer wire from the X contact on the ignition switch. Voltage there with key in off position means a possible "leak" through the ignition switch. If you find voltage there, pull connector A and test A22 again, both the connector side and the CE panel side. If you see voltage on the CE panel side, it's feeding backwards from somewhere else towards the switch, so the problem is not the switch itself.
-- The ignition switch has another connection from the X connection to the light switch. This is also a black-with-yellow-tracer wire. This circuit finds its way through the light switch (in position 2) through connector C to the headlight relay. If you found voltage at A22 in the first test above, and still have it on the wire in the connector with the connector disconnected, lift connector C from the CE panel, and test at A22 again. If the voltage at A22 is gone, your problem is in the headlight switch.
Report back your findings please.
10-06-2016, 05:58 PM
#27
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Sorry, I misread one of your previous posts.
-- test for voltage at CE panel connection A22, with everything plugged in. This is a black-with-yellow-tracer wire from the X contact on the ignition switch. Voltage there with key in off position means a possible "leak" through the ignition switch. If you find voltage there, pull connector A and test A22 again, both the connector side and the CE panel side. If you see voltage on the CE panel side, it's feeding backwards from somewhere else towards the switch, so the problem is not the switch itself.
-- The ignition switch has another connection from the X connection to the light switch. This is also a black-with-yellow-tracer wire. This circuit finds its way through the light switch (in position 2) through connector C to the headlight relay. If you found voltage at A22 in the first test above, and still have it on the wire in the connector with the connector disconnected, lift connector C from the CE panel, and test at A22 again. If the voltage at A22 is gone, your problem is in the headlight switch.
Report back your findings please.
-- test for voltage at CE panel connection A22, with everything plugged in. This is a black-with-yellow-tracer wire from the X contact on the ignition switch. Voltage there with key in off position means a possible "leak" through the ignition switch. If you find voltage there, pull connector A and test A22 again, both the connector side and the CE panel side. If you see voltage on the CE panel side, it's feeding backwards from somewhere else towards the switch, so the problem is not the switch itself.
-- The ignition switch has another connection from the X connection to the light switch. This is also a black-with-yellow-tracer wire. This circuit finds its way through the light switch (in position 2) through connector C to the headlight relay. If you found voltage at A22 in the first test above, and still have it on the wire in the connector with the connector disconnected, lift connector C from the CE panel, and test at A22 again. If the voltage at A22 is gone, your problem is in the headlight switch.
Report back your findings please.
He has replaced the ignition switch.. took the alternator back to the rebuilder to makes sure that the diode was good and is now looking at the starter to see if he incorrectly connnected the wires (doesnt look likely)
it was rebuilt too, and and wondering if it's possible that it could be responsible for a leak. I only stopped by to listen to his engine run as far as water pump noise (what is normal) and didnt have time to look at much, other than the start hook up.... two big wires tied together, a small one on a single post and then of course the internal cable of the starter on the 3rd large nut , alone.
the light still is on when he pulls out the key. (charge light red, at the lower right of the dash panel)
????
it was rebuilt too, and and wondering if it's possible that it could be responsible for a leak. I only stopped by to listen to his engine run as far as water pump noise (what is normal) and didnt have time to look at much, other than the start hook up.... two big wires tied together, a small one on a single post and then of course the internal cable of the starter on the 3rd large nut , alone.
the light still is on when he pulls out the key. (charge light red, at the lower right of the dash panel)
????
Diagnosis and troubleshooting is a process of careful elimination of potential causes. Each step is designed to reduce the number of remaining possibilities. Steps are sequenced to allow the fewest number of steps to isolate a cause.
I teach classes on this stuff for electric utilities, part of a forensic root-cause-analysis seminar series. I and others feel I'm reasonably qualified on the subject matter.
10-07-2016, 01:46 PM
#28
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Perhaps the major frustration with trying to diagnose things with you is your strange and chronic inability to follow instructions. In this case they are very detailed instructions, necessary steps on the way to isolating the possible causes of your problem.
Diagnosis and troubleshooting is a process of careful elimination of potential causes. Each step is designed to reduce the number of remaining possibilities. Steps are sequenced to allow the fewest number of steps to isolate a cause.
I teach classes on this stuff for electric utilities, part of a forensic root-cause-analysis seminar series. I and others feel I'm reasonably qualified on the subject matter.
Diagnosis and troubleshooting is a process of careful elimination of potential causes. Each step is designed to reduce the number of remaining possibilities. Steps are sequenced to allow the fewest number of steps to isolate a cause.
I teach classes on this stuff for electric utilities, part of a forensic root-cause-analysis seminar series. I and others feel I'm reasonably qualified on the subject matter.
You and i only bump head when neither one of us have the actual answers and try and deduce the root cause. im a firm believer in systematic elimination of the obvious and then not so obvious elements to find the solution to the problem.
ive forwarded all your helpful advice and steps, and im hoping he is doing the tests... right now, all i see him doing is changing things out. retracing his steps, changing things out again and not finding the problem!
10-07-2016, 02:37 PM
#29
Bob, ive followed your instructions and others many times to a TEE and found the solution.. Im all ears on things i dont know about and those things are still many with the 928. however, this is a case where we are trying to diagnose a problem with a fellow 928 owner 2nd hand.. i dont have the time to help him, only pass on advice. i have barely time to get my own water pump back in the car.
You and i only bump head when neither one of us have the actual answers and try and deduce the root cause. im a firm believer in systematic elimination of the obvious and then not so obvious elements to find the solution to the problem.
ive forwarded all your helpful advice and steps, and im hoping he is doing the tests... right now, all i see him doing is changing things out. retracing his steps, changing things out again and not finding the problem!
You and i only bump head when neither one of us have the actual answers and try and deduce the root cause. im a firm believer in systematic elimination of the obvious and then not so obvious elements to find the solution to the problem.
ive forwarded all your helpful advice and steps, and im hoping he is doing the tests... right now, all i see him doing is changing things out. retracing his steps, changing things out again and not finding the problem!