Jim bailey - 928 International

The big problem for most 1970s-1980s collectible cars often is the use of PLASTIC for much of the interior trim . It makes it very hard to restore such cars . It is very difficult to make the capital investment for the necessary molds unless the car is ALREADY popular and valuable .

TAREK

Ron_H,

I would like to respectfully point out that your logic is flawed on this subject. You're comparing the highly acclaimed and legendary rear engined Renault to the 928? I lived in in Europe and the Middle East most of my life, where Renault won Pro Rallye Championships and the size of the fan clubs are about, may be 1000 times (conservatively) the size of the 928 following worldwide. You can say those cars were the equivalent of the Mini Cooper and vw beetle combined, as far as success is concerned. There is also a flare of simplicity and romantic mass appeal in restoring them, because they were cars for common folks, unlike the 928 that was built for...ahem...the upper class. Apparently 4 continents and 50 years worth of FIA motorsports is "obscure" and "obsolete" to you. No offense, but degrading Renault Dauphine and Alpine history down to that of the 928 is appaling!! Furthermore, Renault continues to capitalize todate on its successes with that car, unlike Porsche, who finally (and barely) pulled off a new water-cooled 911 and is clearly past the point of flaunting anything related to the 928 is in public without risk of damaging its reputation again.

Of course there will always be an immaculate, never driven 928, corvair, or chevy cavalier out there, worth more to its owner than a fleet of new Ferraris....but I thought we were discussing market price, not sentimental value

moon928

Take it from a person currently searching his butt off for a nice shark; the only people who see the value in these cars are current owners or past owners that want another one.

ViribusUnits

Only way the early 928's price will ever increase much above it's current price plus inflation is if suddently a market springs from no where.

Early 80s EFI systems are still someting of a black art to the modern mechenic. Shoot, look how many 928s are oppered up on ebay becuase their owners can't find anyone even willing to work on them, much less able to work on them. The MFI is to a degree even more cryptic. Notice how many more 928s are offered up after loseing a timeing belt, and the owner desides it's just cheaper to sell the car for below market value. Plus people are leary of tracking the car, because of issues with crank shaft oiling, and the oil return issue.

Tuneing an L-jet EFI system for proformance is pretty much out of the question for most of us. I think I could do it, but I'd have to mess around for some time. The state-of-the-art-block casting doesn't make it easy to bore the engine. It also makes it difficult to switch to a forged pistion if you want to supercharge your car.

Posche didn't leave much easy, cheap hp left in the cars.

You combine the current lack of hot rodding potential, and the difficulty of maintance for most people and we're not talking a key to success.

The rennlist is doing a major job to help reverse this. I'm willing to bet that rennlist is the only reaons most of us can keep our cars. Folks like 928intl, Devek, and 928 Specalists are wakeing the world up to the potenital of the car. When the 928 developments designes come of age, who knows where they'll stop.

Now we wait and see. Who knows where it can go from here. The California cars might start beating the bejus out of everything else on the track, and suddently there's a demand again. Who knows what might happen, it might go up, it might go down. We shall see...

Jersey Joe

I agree with Tarek, it's the demand side that will drive the value up or down. When I was a kid I fell in love with the AMC AMX, a car that was to say the least a decent effort from an insignificant manufacturer. All in all it was a very limited production car and just having one set you apart from every Camaro, Chevelle, Mustang and GTO owner. I had lots of them, parted them out rebuilt them ect... It used to gall me that if I had a really nice one people would pass it up and pay more $$$$ for a clapped out rust filled 65 mustang because that was the acknowledged car to have. People are fickle, they want to possess things (cars) that others will acknowledge as valuable. If all of a sudden the Fiat Tupilino became it in thing, their value would skyrocket. One of the best thing about the 928 is that most people don't know about them and to have a clean one even if it's a 1990 makes people notice and ask questions, Since the car is unusual it gets noticed. I keep mine because I like it not because I expect the value to go up.

moon928

Is there a price guide for 928 other than KBB or nada? I have been looking at a few 928's and everything I see is above the values in both books. Any thoughts on what a 87 or 88 S4 with less than 80k should go for???

Ron_H

Tarek:

I, too, respectfully offer the following clarifications:

I did not mean to imply that Renault was to be compared to Porsche, particularly in terms of cost or social ranking. I simply meant to point out that the models for which my friend supplies parts are now considered obsolete and obscure (his description) and thus, somewhat difficult to find for the average owner. Many are grateful for his efforts and presence, just as Porsche owners are for firms like Parts Obsolete. They are so grateful and he is so crafty by carefully buying up all remaining sources of parts he can find in the world, that he has turned this venture into a very lucrative and rewarding one.

I must also take exception to catagorizing Porsche as an upper income auto. The early models were certainly a relative bargain for the performance and driving pleasure they offered. Even today I think they are relatively modestly priced for a league that includes cars costing twice as much. Models like the Carrerra2 and 904, the original 911, the 550 Spyder, all performed above their price at the time, and kept doing it for an unusually high mileage. The Ruf begins to approach ultimate performance for much more cost, but still under or about the same as Ferrari. Only the Carrerra GT has begun to approach the cost of other supercars, but because of limited production, just as did the GT1 which could beat them all on the track. Porsche has though begun to creep upward in cost, and probably is capitalizing on their reputation purposefully.

I certainly did not mean to imply that the Renault and the Porsche 928 were comparable. Only that what has happened to owners of Renault that have gone out of production and remain loved and preserved by their owners can happen with 928s as well. We are proof....well, some of us anyway. My friend snaps up Renaults at bargain prices, has them cosmetically restored in Mexico, and he mechanically restores them himself, and then sells them to eager and happy buyers for a nice profit. And everyone wins. It will probably happen or is somewhat happening with 928s too. They are relative bargains as supercars, and will fall into the hands of people who recognize that fact and will seek to preserve them. And as the supply dwindles, the price will probably increase, just as it has with 356 models.

Calling the 928 history degrading is somewhat curious; it is certainly "unappreciated" on a common large scale, but not among those who are knowledgeable. The failing of the 928 as I understand it is that it was never really loved by or promoted as enthusiasticlly as the 911 by the family or the Porsche afficionados who cherished the 911 concept so adamantly. The concept of the 928 as the definition of a "proper" GT was not advanced by F. Porsche himself either. Perhaps that had to do with his father's influence. Whatever. Because it was not fervently promoted and allowed ultimately to die as a concept, it failed to achieve widespread acceptance. I am one who doubted its validity as a GT and a proper Porsche until I drove one... and then had to have one. I don't think widespread public recognition, use or adoption is a test of worth, either of ideas or products. In fact, ultimately, the true appreciation of the 928 may achieve levels far exceeding the common and mundane. It already has that recognition, and concepts found in the 928 are just now being emulated by other constructors (Corvette and Mustang). Certainly Porsche
has achieved in motorsport and transport at least what Renault has achieved. There is growing recognition that the 928 ranks as one of the all time great all around Grand Touring autos ever to be produced. It simply didn't have its engine in the "right" place, eh??

Bill Coleman

KBB and Edmunds have no clue when it comes to anything remotely exotic. I was (briefly) considering a nice '89 930 available in my area - KBB valued it in the low $20s, Edmunds at $15k! Good luck finding one at that price that still drives. Same thing for Gen IV Supra turbos - if you can find one at the prices they list buy it!

My '87 5sp is listed at $8k by KBB, $9k by Edmunds. I'd never sell it for that price. I don't know what you would have to offer me, because if I did sell it I would have to go find another one!

Ron_H

Bill:

Having experienced this farce twice in the past, once with a 2 week old 911E, and then again with an original 914/6, I recommend getting a reputable independent appraiser to create a realistic replacement value appraisal and buying "stated value" insurance from your carrier. That way there is no hassle if your cars are hit or stolen. The company simply hands over the agreed value and you go look for another one. In my case, both times some jerk rammed into the rear of the car while I was stopped at an intersection. Not my fault at all. The 911 was brand new, and the insurance fought for a month until I threatened to rent a brand new Mercedes until they paid the price for a new car. The 914/6 is a horror story that would anger you to hear. Get stated value and sleep at night. And keep it current relative to real market values. I had let my 914 value slip for a few years and had to tangle with the other guy's insurance co.

Jersey Joe

As a Claims Manager with a major insurance carrier in New Jersey, I fully understand this concept. We offer a value lock policy that allows you to lock in the value of the vehicle on the policy renewal date. Most common cars have values that drop slightly each year, but the lock in price is good for 365 days until the policy renews. Special interest vehicle that increase in value each year are allowed this adjustment also. It's not exactly stated value because the company has input in calculating the actual value. True stated value places a value on a risk sometimes irrespective of market consideration. If you had a 1965 Rambler American that had a special meaning to you, you could insured it for $1,000,000.00 if you wanted to pay the price which by the way is typically a % of the value.

FatBoy

I have a clean 88 S4 with an agreed value of $23,500 from LW.
Although they have some quirks the rate and coverage is Ok for my use.
It is a weekend car with 21,XXX miles with lots of time on small details and a few more that require attention ( original radio w/ a mind of its own).
Guards Red / Black, RMB, X-pipe, Tip, Devek Strut brace painted G red, GTS rims.
Maybe one day I would sell it --- when I can no longer see the dials for 20k, yup 20k take it or leave it.
If there are no takers --- I'll just ask the wife to bury me in it.

jayc67

Who is LW? Any other companies offering policies like this?

I have my '87 on my standard Allstate auto policy, and it scares the heck out of me since book value and market value are so far apart.

Afraid it would be one heck of a fight to get paid what I feel the car is worth.

How have you folks dealt with this issue?

I have a '68 Camaro SS on an Antique Auto policy, agreed value and all that, but they all want cars 25 years or older....

Jay

Jersey Joe

In most states the manner in which the insurance company calculates ACV or Actual Cash Value is somewhat based on market conditions. In New Jersey, the Insurance Department approves two different methods. The first is based on a "Market Survey." An outside vendor complies a database of similar vehicles within a 50 mile radius of your home. The price that they use is the "take price" not the asking price. Method number two is an electronic version of the old two book average, in this case the NADA and the REDBOOK. A detailed accounting of the vehicle options and mileage is input into a program and out pops an average. This numer is always higher than the market survey. As you would imagine 99% of the companies in NJ use the first method because the values are lower. In the case of the 928, since there are not a lot of them to conduct a market survey it may actually help the value that the insurance company will pay. In most cases the NADA and REDBOOK average is much higher than market. For example, my 1990 GT will two book average at $22,299.75. I did not do a market survey, but I would be willing to bet that at any time there are not enough
1990 928 GT's within 50 miles of my home to conduct a market survey. The $22,299.75 is in my opinion way more than I could get if I wanted to sell it.
In most cases this is not a problem unless someone needs to sell their car and can't. They then make it disappear and file a claim. "Selling it to the insurance company" is common here. That why all companies have full time fraud units.

GT Jackson

As an aside, don't forget tht the 928 died in the market during a hellish recession, the early 90's. Unemployment was so high in this area that a repo Bimmer's were being sold at less than $.10 on the dollar and YUPPIE repo condo's were so cheap and plentiful that banks kept them off the market just to try and sell what they could. $100,000 plus condos could be had for $10 to 15 grand. Markets crashed everywhere. Not many people in these parts were into spending big bucks on flashmobiles.

FatBoy

GT,
LW = Leeland West they are provide coverage to P Club of Am members.
The policy I have is for 2.5k or 5 k mile per year (I forget). Cost is about $700 per year.

Grundy (underwritten by Chubb) is another one that provides a stated value policy to my pal for his '86 928 w/ low miles.
I'm might check them out since he pays a few $ less than me.


No affiliation w/ above, yada, yada, yada.