WILLOW SPRINGS vs the stock oiled 928 ... coming this May....
02-08-2016, 06:01 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Again.. Bob, you seem to be not reading with the amount of comprehension needed to hold a friendly discussion.
FACT: my car was always a stroker when this "Bet" was presented to me and the entire list!
IT WAS NOT THE ORIGINAL CHALLENGE! never was a "stock bottom end mentioend" never was it insinuated that a stock 5 liter be bolted in..... but that would be fun though!
FACT: If the engine survives with only cross drilling ,then that becomes valuable to the list
FACT: i raced at a high level , with low buget for many years... 120hours and video showing the type of times and speeds the car could run on that budget
FACT: you know nothing about brake balance, based on your last coment. all racers use matched revs to downshift and with a 928 have a certain amount of compression braking. i never "use" it, it is just here factored into threshold braking. However, i did attempt to increase braking bias to the rear and look what that brought.... at the limit, and trail braking it was an undriveable rear end useless for racing... however, i would recommend it for you driving on the streets of LA to get more pad wear on the front.
FACT: this is about all the bolt on oiling "solutions" for the 928. baffles, breathers, scrapers, windage trays, spacers, accusumps, etc etc. I'm going to show that they are not needed. and the engine will and has survived for 85 hours to date with out them. before that, yes, the engine was stock and survived for 120 racing hours and over 40,000 street miles!
FACT: you below make fun of my set up and insinuate that i abuse my gearbox and engine (see below) but i thought i babied the car? you cant even stay consistent!!!
am i babying it or abusing it , or not??
FACT: my car was always a stroker when this "Bet" was presented to me and the entire list!
IT WAS NOT THE ORIGINAL CHALLENGE! never was a "stock bottom end mentioend" never was it insinuated that a stock 5 liter be bolted in..... but that would be fun though!
FACT: If the engine survives with only cross drilling ,then that becomes valuable to the list
FACT: i raced at a high level , with low buget for many years... 120hours and video showing the type of times and speeds the car could run on that budget
FACT: you know nothing about brake balance, based on your last coment. all racers use matched revs to downshift and with a 928 have a certain amount of compression braking. i never "use" it, it is just here factored into threshold braking. However, i did attempt to increase braking bias to the rear and look what that brought.... at the limit, and trail braking it was an undriveable rear end useless for racing... however, i would recommend it for you driving on the streets of LA to get more pad wear on the front.
FACT: this is about all the bolt on oiling "solutions" for the 928. baffles, breathers, scrapers, windage trays, spacers, accusumps, etc etc. I'm going to show that they are not needed. and the engine will and has survived for 85 hours to date with out them. before that, yes, the engine was stock and survived for 120 racing hours and over 40,000 street miles!
FACT: you below make fun of my set up and insinuate that i abuse my gearbox and engine (see below) but i thought i babied the car? you cant even stay consistent!!!
am i babying it or abusing it , or not?? The question is about an engine with stock oiling. That means --stock--, as it came from the Porsche factory. You have not one clue about all the care that went in to prepping the engine in your car, except that others paid for it. The crank is Chevy-drilled to help with rod bearing starvation. Bearings and saddles grooved for better oiling. Passages relieved, lots of detail stuff for which you have no appreciation, apparently.
You chronically spew about how well a stock-oiling car can survive on the track, then contradict yourself by holding your car up as "proof". Want to "prove" your theory and actually get to "your" second stage? Drop a stock-bottom-end engine in your car and bring it to Willow. That was your original challenge. Others have called you out for changing the terms by driving with the non-stock-oiling engine in the car. If I were you, I'd insist on getting the first laps so at least you can get some seat time that day. Set the rev limiter at 4000 or less while others drive it.
Otherwise it' a long tow down and back that "proves" nothing.
Any reply that says anything but "stock engine bottom end will be installed" is denial.
I frankly don't give a rat's *** about how you drive your car, how well or poorly you do with it soft-pedalling around your favorite tracks keeping the engine alive. A man's got to know his limits, and in your case the limits of the car too. You are a low-budget weekend racing enthusiast, I get that. Dumpster tires. Half-fast attempts to verbally "engineer" your way out of shoddy prep. Can't seem to adapt to a correct brake balancing setup, because you'd rather abuse the gearbox and the engine than retrain yourself.
So let us know when you'll be 'ready' with the "stock oiling system" fitted to your car. Until then, ban yourself from this thread.
You chronically spew about how well a stock-oiling car can survive on the track, then contradict yourself by holding your car up as "proof". Want to "prove" your theory and actually get to "your" second stage? Drop a stock-bottom-end engine in your car and bring it to Willow. That was your original challenge. Others have called you out for changing the terms by driving with the non-stock-oiling engine in the car. If I were you, I'd insist on getting the first laps so at least you can get some seat time that day. Set the rev limiter at 4000 or less while others drive it.
Otherwise it' a long tow down and back that "proves" nothing.
Any reply that says anything but "stock engine bottom end will be installed" is denial.
I frankly don't give a rat's *** about how you drive your car, how well or poorly you do with it soft-pedalling around your favorite tracks keeping the engine alive. A man's got to know his limits, and in your case the limits of the car too. You are a low-budget weekend racing enthusiast, I get that. Dumpster tires. Half-fast attempts to verbally "engineer" your way out of shoddy prep. Can't seem to adapt to a correct brake balancing setup, because you'd rather abuse the gearbox and the engine than retrain yourself.
So let us know when you'll be 'ready' with the "stock oiling system" fitted to your car. Until then, ban yourself from this thread.
Last edited by mark kibort; 02-08-2016 at 06:27 PM.
02-08-2016, 06:17 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Jeff and Bob, see below the discussion way back when the bet was offered. it had NOTHING to do with any other motor, but the motor I have today! Greg brown went on and on about stock oiling and wet sump oil pick up. Crank drilling was never part of his discussion . The challenge was made before with no reverence to any other engine but the engine ive been running. that was back in 2014. the stroker has been in the car since 2009 . He made very clear reference to the car, "as it sits today! "
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...l#post11107026
greg brown said:
It's not a gift....first of all he has to beat Anderson, to collect the "gift" 5K....not such an easy task....snip.......
And, to win the bet....his engine has to live for two 30 minute practice sessions with Anderson driving at Willow and two practice sessions with Kibort driving....and then survive timed runs. All with very sticky tires.
He can bring the Pope along, to bless that Amsoil, if he wants.
That is simply not going to happen.....
Remember, this entire discussion (since Rob's engine blew up) has been about what I did to make Anderson's race engines live at Willow.....not what I did to make anybody else's engines live anywhere else.
Willow Springs has some rather "unique features", for the 928 engine. Two quite long corners, with extremely high G loading run at very high rpms (with 928 gearbox ratios.)
Hell on any wet sumped engine....certain death on a 928 engine.
greg brown then said:
the original challenge by Greg brown
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...l#post11107026
greg brown said:
It's not a gift....first of all he has to beat Anderson, to collect the "gift" 5K....not such an easy task....snip.......
And, to win the bet....his engine has to live for two 30 minute practice sessions with Anderson driving at Willow and two practice sessions with Kibort driving....and then survive timed runs. All with very sticky tires.
He can bring the Pope along, to bless that Amsoil, if he wants.
That is simply not going to happen.....
Remember, this entire discussion (since Rob's engine blew up) has been about what I did to make Anderson's race engines live at Willow.....not what I did to make anybody else's engines live anywhere else.
Willow Springs has some rather "unique features", for the 928 engine. Two quite long corners, with extremely high G loading run at very high rpms (with 928 gearbox ratios.)
Hell on any wet sumped engine....certain death on a 928 engine.
Read my posts. We've been talking about what is required for a 928 engine to survive....at Willow Springs, with Mark Anderson driving.
I would have had zero concern about Rob driving his own car at Willow....it would have lasted for many, many events...maybe years.
What you don't understand about Willow Springs is the connection from turn 7 to turn 9. With a fast driver, the car is run at high rpms all the way from 7 to the braking for turn 9. This packs oil into the heads and then the G loading in turn 8 pulls the remaining oil away from the pick-up. Do the math. Figure out how fast turn 8 is. Look at a gear chart....figure out the rpms the engine will be turning, with a 928 transmission.
It's way different than Laguna, Thunderhill, or Button Willow.
I don't care what oil you use....when the pick-up is dry, the bearings are dry, and the lifters clatter....it's going to be over really quick.
BTW....I drove my 911 based cars for over 20 years. Owned more track/class records than I can count. My ability to understand vehicle dynamics and set-up is what made me so successful at professional racing.
But the poke was worth a try....
Now quit making excuses....we will go to Willow on an open track day....I would not want to ruin a POC event, by you spraying hot oily parts all over the track. On a open track day, you have plenty of time to go out and clean up your own oil off of the track.
I'm not helping, BTW. But I will film you out there sweeping dry clean around.
I would have had zero concern about Rob driving his own car at Willow....it would have lasted for many, many events...maybe years.
What you don't understand about Willow Springs is the connection from turn 7 to turn 9. With a fast driver, the car is run at high rpms all the way from 7 to the braking for turn 9. This packs oil into the heads and then the G loading in turn 8 pulls the remaining oil away from the pick-up. Do the math. Figure out how fast turn 8 is. Look at a gear chart....figure out the rpms the engine will be turning, with a 928 transmission.
It's way different than Laguna, Thunderhill, or Button Willow.
I don't care what oil you use....when the pick-up is dry, the bearings are dry, and the lifters clatter....it's going to be over really quick.
BTW....I drove my 911 based cars for over 20 years. Owned more track/class records than I can count. My ability to understand vehicle dynamics and set-up is what made me so successful at professional racing.
But the poke was worth a try....
Now quit making excuses....we will go to Willow on an open track day....I would not want to ruin a POC event, by you spraying hot oily parts all over the track. On a open track day, you have plenty of time to go out and clean up your own oil off of the track.
I'm not helping, BTW. But I will film you out there sweeping dry clean around.
Here it is:
Bring that POS down to Willow. I'll bring Anderson. You both get two 30 minute practice sessions. And then you both run for time. You both run on your very own set of brand new race tires. I will gather enough interested people to pay for the tires....or pay for them myself.
You beat his time....I'll give you 5K. Cash. Not a bet.....just a flat 5K into your hands. You can keep the tires....they should last you the rest of 2014!
There is a "catch"....from the "mechanic". You and I will have a separate bet for another 5K. I'm betting the engine (and it has to be exactly like it is, right now....no Accusump added....nothing different) will not survive those practice sessions at Willow and still be in one piece to run those timed runs.
If you are right and you are the hero driver you think you are...and Amsoil is the only thing needed to keep a 928 engine together at Willow....you walk away with 10K......and two almost brand new sets of tires!
You are wrong....you are out 5K and need another engine.....and I keep the almost new tires.
There it is...forget all the ego, forget all the bull****. Quit rationalizing about how great you are and show me. Super easy day for you...you've spent dozens of hours telling us all about how great you are, that you are better than Anderson, dozens of hours telling us that all one needs to keep a 928 engine together is Amsoil.
Simple, easy payday, for you!
Put up or shut up.
Bring that POS down to Willow. I'll bring Anderson. You both get two 30 minute practice sessions. And then you both run for time. You both run on your very own set of brand new race tires. I will gather enough interested people to pay for the tires....or pay for them myself.
You beat his time....I'll give you 5K. Cash. Not a bet.....just a flat 5K into your hands. You can keep the tires....they should last you the rest of 2014!
There is a "catch"....from the "mechanic". You and I will have a separate bet for another 5K. I'm betting the engine (and it has to be exactly like it is, right now....no Accusump added....nothing different) will not survive those practice sessions at Willow and still be in one piece to run those timed runs.
If you are right and you are the hero driver you think you are...and Amsoil is the only thing needed to keep a 928 engine together at Willow....you walk away with 10K......and two almost brand new sets of tires!
You are wrong....you are out 5K and need another engine.....and I keep the almost new tires.
There it is...forget all the ego, forget all the bull****. Quit rationalizing about how great you are and show me. Super easy day for you...you've spent dozens of hours telling us all about how great you are, that you are better than Anderson, dozens of hours telling us that all one needs to keep a 928 engine together is Amsoil.
Simple, easy payday, for you!
Put up or shut up.
.Originally Posted by GregBBRD View Post
I don't make up what happens at Willow, nor do I have to explain it. The "trail" of blown 928 engines at Willow Springs speaks volumes for everyone....except you.
No 928 engine driven faster than about a 1:32.00 with a stock oiling system, has ever survived Willow Springs...
Zero.
Try and be intelligent enough to understand that this is not "my rules". It's not something I have made up! I'm not responsible for it!
It's pure and simple.....it's f^cking reality.
I don't make up what happens at Willow, nor do I have to explain it. The "trail" of blown 928 engines at Willow Springs speaks volumes for everyone....except you.
No 928 engine driven faster than about a 1:32.00 with a stock oiling system, has ever survived Willow Springs...
Zero.
Try and be intelligent enough to understand that this is not "my rules". It's not something I have made up! I'm not responsible for it!
It's pure and simple.....it's f^cking reality.
02-08-2016, 06:39 PM
#49
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Anyhow, I don't care about your beef with Greg. Go drive around and calculate whatever numbers you must to make yourself happy in order to prove in your mind that you are right.
The rest of us simply don't care and this forum is not your playhouse to continually hijack with this nonsense.
If you have a problem with Greg, pick up the phone and call him.
This is done, no more on this stupid challenge.