LukeSportsman

I'm sure this has been covered to some extent in some way in the past, but I would like to ask your opinions again in respect to new products available.

If you had a certain/specific amount of money. Say it was 40-50k. You can set that parameter in your answer to make it easier for the response due to your own experience level.

Which model would you start off with to build a streetable track car? I want a legal driveable car where performance outways comfort. Please don't just respond the usual: Buy the latest that you can afford!

Looking at the model spec's and what is available, would you pay the premium for a GT or GTS over an S4 if you might end up changing at the least shocks, springs, seats, exhaust, and lighten it up some. Short of the GTS, probably a brake upgrade would be in the formula. Are the trans (manual of course) upgrades worth the premium in the GTS for durability if the plans are to stay below 450hp? The added torque is tempting, but is it better to reserve that extra cash for a stroker 5.0 later after my driving has matched the suspension? I would think that the majority of my efforts initially would be suspension, brakes and lightening. Saving HP for after the driver improves :-) Who wouldn't want the GTS for its looks, but there seems to be a real premium in the market for these over earlier 32V.

I'm just looking for opinions, everyone has one so please speak up. Experience outways looking at numbers anyday. By the way, this will NOT be a class racer so don't limit the rules for performance just want bang for buck.

TIA
Luke

bcdavis

The GTS is full of a lot of extra "goodies" that will just end up in the trash can.

If you want more horsepower later, there are many ways to get there.

If you get a cheaper car, you can save that money, and put it towards all the other modifications you will want.

What is the point of the GTS flares, if you end up wanting even more rubber later, and end up cutting and flaring?

I'd say it would be better to start out with an s4, in *poor* condition cosmeticaly, and gut the interior, flare the fenders, drop in a cage, and GTS brakes, tires and wheels, and go racing...

You can do performance mods later, and you will have saved a lot of $$$ in the process.

The price difference between a GTS, and an s4, will give you plenty of cash for headers, exhaust, cams, RR-FPR, etc... If you decide down the road that you really need a stroker, or turbos, or a supercharger, you can cross that bridge later...

GlenL

Start with the model that appeals to you the most. Spend 5-15K and get one with a decent interior. Then with 40-50K to spend, you can build whatever engine you want and add whetever brakes you want. Flare the rears and put in whateve tires you want.

I'd get an older S with no sunroof. Preferably a Euro as those are a bit lighter to start, if not completely federalized. I suppose that reflects what I've got, but it works. On the other hand, check out the number of guys tracking those cars.

Get a mechanicly worn out model of your choice but still with nice interior for those street days. You'll want to rebuild everything anyways.

bcdavis

If this is the motivation, and speed outweighs comfort, I would say that what you are looking for, is not a car with the best interior, but with the best potential for speed modifications.

I would say that the s4 has a lot more aftermarket engine modifications available. Not to mention that the s4 has more power than the s2's or Euros, even without any mods...

If you get a "not so nice" s4, you will save a lot of cash, over the price of a GTS, and you can use that money for GTS brakes, Konis, sway bars, headers, RRFPR, flares, tires, and all the other goodies... Who needs a nice interior, when you are using racing seats, etc...

What's the price difference?

A used s4, in not so great shape, probably $14-16K?
A GTS: $30,000?

I guess I am saying that with that extra $15K, you can build a pretty nice motor,
and do a lot of other stuff to the s4...

LukeSportsman

Thank you for your response. From what I was seeing at the vendors and the examples on this board, the S4 or possibly the GT seemed like the prefered base.

Anyone have a differing opinion? Does anyone see a different model as a better choice for them? Or for that matter, any specific options or years to avoid or pick for that matter?

Please, I know we all have opinions. Thanks

Luke

2V4V

More like a used S-4 in darn nice shape at $15K. Real low mileage car for 20K.

GTS are wild card on the price, though almost all are still way higher than they should be. IMHO.

I would also recommend an earlier, though post 86.5, car. BC makes a very good point about the GTS - there's no point in having all the extras, as they're just going to get ripped out. The body is 99% the same, save for the fender flares, why spend the $ on a very late car? You can bolt it all on an earlier car, just the same and throw out less stuff.

Greg

GlenL

Get the '87 S4 as those have forged connecting rods. That'll be nice if you mod for power or RPMs.

On the other hand, a Euro S will be seconds quicker as is.

Also, as your stated interest is in improving power and suspension, get one with an interior that is nice enough for you. Improving that is surprisingly expensive and time consuming. Unless, of course, you're going to rip it all out right off the bat. Does anyone want to drive around in a crapped-up Porsche?

I'm curious about your plans for using the car and track experience.

LukeSportsman

Glen,

Intentions: My version of a supercar. What I mean by this andthe reason for this is that I already have 6 cars and I'm hoping to stop at 7. I want a car that merits $$ and my time put into it. Cars like my MG can only be taken so far with any rational thought to use. I have a tube chassis'd drag car, and an overpowered vintage mustang among others. So I'm looking for a car that can be optimized for performance and still retain a level of sophistication. I don't want to put up with the maintenance cost of a F-car nor the cost of body work. I'm tired of pony cars and don't fit comfortably in XKE's. I want something that stands out and is more visually appealing than an E46 M3. I'm intrigued by 930's but not sure if it fits my driving style. I don't want to retire from driving my other front engine cars and won't get excessive amounts of track time a year to hope to perfect both styles.

Experience: Drag racing super class cars (don't discount us straight liners, when things go wrong we actually have to drive them). I've done some of the U-rent type of racing school stuff. Would like to get into some DE with Porsche and I live close to Putnam Park, IN whichs hosts several Porsche events. I know that I won't need the hp at first and as mentioned above that I will spend my $$ on suspension and brakes. Just want a sound platform for the future. Would hate to save a few $ now and then later have tO spend $$$$$ on getting it back to the point I should have started with anyway.

Plus, unlike any American Sports Car, it actually has a back seat for my young children =) Yes, Glenn, I don't want a clapped out interior because it will be street car. Just don't need heated seats, climate control, etc.

Hints like interior being expensive and the forged connecting rods are exactly what I'm looking to hear. Thanks

Jim bailey - 928 International

Best bet is an 89 GT .......... it has the bigger camshafts , good brakes ..... change the exhaust to Ott x-pipe high flow mufflers STOCK manifolds and ADD 30 HP ! Race lightweight seats , remove A/C compressor , add $995 Eibach /Bilsteins , wider rims say 9 and 10 by 18 and go play ........ Just pay attention to RPM consider adding an accusump . Stock brakes will be O K with race pads . It never ever seems to work for long trying to make a dual purpose street / race car . They tend to morph into dedicated track cars rather quickly but it is much like "building a ship in a bottle" as you try to work around things . Weight is the most important thing you can change but each pound is at the expense of comfort / appearance ..nearly fully gutted stripped out it will still weigh about 3,000 lbs . You will also find it is not competitive in the PCA class it falls into irregardless of what modifications you make until you go full bore 2,600 lb 500 hp on slicks ( $50,000 race car ) unlimited class . Bone stock it will run 165 Mph or so ; 1/4 mile trap speed 100 MPH , great brakes and unbelievably controlled handling and balance .

GlenL

Sounds like great fun!

Then an '87 S4 or an '89 GT would be perfect.

Maybe add a supercharger for that instant fun. If you've been looking around the forum you'll have noticed some fairly long and spirited discussion of these. You're located near the right part of the country (near Wisconsin) for that. I've seen two Tim Murphy units and they are well done. Don't leave out Carl Fausett (Wisc., too) as he has done them as well.

Or maybe you want to be the first guy with a 6.5 litre supercharged stroker.

These cars will have the single-disk clutch. You might consider putting in the earlier dual-disk set-up. That will handle more torque. (928intl or DEVEK can help)

Sounds like you've looked into trannies. There are reports of some corn-cobbing with massive torque. Maybe cryo freezing will help. (Don? Still holding with that stroker?)

Keep us posted!

Carl Fausett

If you know a track car is your goal, I'd start with the lightest 928 made.
They are all boat-anchor heavy, but the 78 and 79 model years are the lightest ones ever built. The cars are cheap, and the CIS injection systems will fuel up to 450 HP. Doesn't pay to get a car with a lot of options - 6-way seats, sunroof, etc - they make it heavier. The leather interior option is heavier than the vinyl interior. The only option you DO want is the limited-slip differential.
Carl
www.928motorsports.com

mark kibort

No, big mistake. I had the 84 and the 79 converted to race cars and all three (including the S4) require the $7000 entry price for race car conversion.
headers, wheels, tires, cage , seat, suspension as Bailey said, and other nick nacks.

with an S4, the brakes are good enough to beat anything around. transmissions are dreams! The S4 engine with headers can get well over 300 HP at the wheels. at a guted only 2700lbs empty, it is a formatable race car as good as most any 996GT3 on simular tires. Just look at my last outing with PCA. 5th out of 12 Supercup porsche 996 GT3s and they were on slicks and weigh 400lbs less!!!

so, if you go the pre 86, you have to worry about transmissions, upgraded intake systems, new euro heads, 5 liter bottom ends or doing a stroker.
and, replacing all the old brake systems. if you go older, you are looking all sorts of suspension upgrades,etc. The S4 can be a gut and go, racer that is second to none . sell all the interior and seats on ebay to make the race car conversion cheaper!

MK

bcdavis

That makes sense to me.

Also, he was talking about a "supercar".

If you wanted a really "cheap" racecar, you can get a euro s2, because they may be cheaper.
Then you can just strip it and run it. But I really have to agree with Mark, that if you can find
a pretty moderate condition s4, you will have better components, and more room to grow, in the area of modifications...

mark kibort

I think the 2nd place car would be the 86s, as they have the big brakes. this is important as part of the platform. Although I had great luck with the old S2 brakes and pagit oranges for many years.

you will buy those brakes at sometime, and thats a 2k upgrade. may as well get it with the car, and skip the labor!!.

the euro 4.7 is a strong competitor, and is a good choice too now that I think of it. didnt they have big brakes in 85? anyway, then, it would be an easy upgrade to drop a stroker or 5 liter bottomend. those euro 2 valve heads really flow nice. I got 292hp at the wheels out of a euro hybrid, with the 5 liter and 82 heads/cams, 86 block and 84 injection system. the only other difference, is that you could loose the 84 AFM and get the euro Hot wire MAF. (probably good for 10-15hp)

Its a great car to gut and race either way!!

Mk

QUOTE]Originally posted by bcdavis
That makes sense to me.

Also, he was talking about a "supercar".

If you wanted a really "cheap" racecar, you can get a euro s2, because they may be cheaper.
Then you can just strip it and run it. But I really have to agree with Mark, that if you can find
a pretty moderate condition s4, you will have better components, and more room to grow, in the area of modifications... [/QUOTE]

Dennis K

I'd second the vote for the '89 GT.

In addition to all the reasons mentioned, it has a traditional clutch-type limited slip differential, has no airbags and has the close-ratio GT gearbox. The '90 & '91 GT's have the electronic PSD differential and airbags. The '89 GT is the perfect platform from which to start.

My car could be considered a "streetable track car" and I use it for over 20 track days/year. The 928 is a great platform run DE's in. It's stable, forgiving and pretty fast. No weird handling quirks that other cars have due to suspension or engine layout compromises.