"These are, by far, the scariest cars (to repair and maintain)"
11-01-2015, 11:35 AM
#16
Racer
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Palm Beach, FL / Hamburg, DE
Posts: 418
Likes: 0
Received 9 Likes
on
9 Posts
If the author can't find anything constructive to say, then he just not publish anything and keep quiet.
Otherwise... he could go f@*k himself.
Otherwise... he could go f@*k himself.
Most of the content of is, more or less, correct. Only "finding parts for a 928 can be nearly impossible" is incorrect in that most parts are still available from Porsche. Also the gauge cluster, if still available new, (NLA for the GTS) would be definitely more than $600.
"prices can be terrifying". The simple plastic/metal GTS fuse panel is still available new from Porsche for $3806.00 (928sRUs quote) which I find "terrifying" for what we are getting.
MN
11-01-2015, 11:44 AM
#17
Drifting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adk46 View Post
Well done! It's a shame Porsche doesn't make an electric bicycle, even if color-matching handlebars were a $500 option. I converted an old bicycle to electric on the cheap (Hill Topper). Everybody with a car subject to the gas guzzler tax needs to have something like this to meet HAFE (household average fuel economy standards). I think 928 owners also need to have some very simple vehicle to meet a household maintenance anxiety standard.
(Has no one yet substituted an electric motor for their TBF-stricken 928 engine? I'm sure there's plenty of room on the CE panel to wire it up.)
Colleague of mine in vicinity of DC commutes in one of these:
http://organictransit.com/
Originally Posted by Adk46 View Post
Well done! It's a shame Porsche doesn't make an electric bicycle, even if color-matching handlebars were a $500 option. I converted an old bicycle to electric on the cheap (Hill Topper). Everybody with a car subject to the gas guzzler tax needs to have something like this to meet HAFE (household average fuel economy standards). I think 928 owners also need to have some very simple vehicle to meet a household maintenance anxiety standard.
(Has no one yet substituted an electric motor for their TBF-stricken 928 engine? I'm sure there's plenty of room on the CE panel to wire it up.)
Colleague of mine in vicinity of DC commutes in one of these:
http://organictransit.com/
I've seen those tricycles with cabs...pretty cool, but can't park it in my office.
11-01-2015, 12:19 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Adirondack Mountains, New York
Posts: 2,418
Received 318 Likes
on
166 Posts
928 owners are smarter than most. For example, it's rare to see "break" instead of "brake" on this forum. It's just a Darwinian thing, I believe - if you can't or won't change the TB, you won't be an owner for very long.
It's all relative, though; few of us are smart enough to fix the hatch release.
I'm trying to set a modern record for going the longest without looking at the CE panel - 13 months so far. I'm not sure I'd survive the experience, quite frankly.
It's all relative, though; few of us are smart enough to fix the hatch release.
I'm trying to set a modern record for going the longest without looking at the CE panel - 13 months so far. I'm not sure I'd survive the experience, quite frankly.
11-01-2015, 12:46 PM
#19
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
I'm pretty sure I'm sober, reading that I'm not sure what I should be disagreeing with???
How many threads / posts are we talking about NLA parts (like fuel lines)? I think a lot of you have very little experience with other makes / model cars (that are even a lot older) where 100% of every part is readily available from multiple sources.
He's talking about electrical issues with these cars. The most common phrase in the history of Rennlist is: "Check your grounds" followed by "Did you check a relay?"
"Buy a sorted one or don’t buy one at all" - We tell people this all the time!!!
I understand we don't like seeing negative press about our cars, but I'm sorry, people need to know what they are in for. I recently witnessed what happens to a very nice 928 when purchased by the wrong idiots. I still have nightmares about what I saw a couple months ago. I with that dolt would have read this article first.....
Not disagreeing on the Testarossa maintenance, but were you aware the engine must be removed for a Countach Clutch job? Unlike some cars, the Countach was not designed with engine removals in mind.
As for the V8 Ferrari's, it's not even close. I've personally done an engine out job on a 355 and it was a piece of cake. One of the easiest cars I've ever worked on (it was a GTS which actually makes things easier). The 3 year belt job is BS. My father's 355 had 7+ years on the belt job that I did and he had no intentions of doing it for another couple of years (but he sold the car this past April).
How many threads / posts are we talking about NLA parts (like fuel lines)? I think a lot of you have very little experience with other makes / model cars (that are even a lot older) where 100% of every part is readily available from multiple sources.
He's talking about electrical issues with these cars. The most common phrase in the history of Rennlist is: "Check your grounds" followed by "Did you check a relay?"
"Buy a sorted one or don’t buy one at all" - We tell people this all the time!!!
I understand we don't like seeing negative press about our cars, but I'm sorry, people need to know what they are in for. I recently witnessed what happens to a very nice 928 when purchased by the wrong idiots. I still have nightmares about what I saw a couple months ago. I with that dolt would have read this article first.....
The fact that he chose the Countach over any Ferrari variant of the same era says it all. They are actually quite a bit less maintenance intensive and don't require a very costly engine out service and new belts every 5,000 miles / 5 years like a Testarossa, etc. which is easily a $15k affair. 355, 348s etc are also very costly. The Countach is chain driven and very reliable with very little routine maintenance.
As for the V8 Ferrari's, it's not even close. I've personally done an engine out job on a 355 and it was a piece of cake. One of the easiest cars I've ever worked on (it was a GTS which actually makes things easier). The 3 year belt job is BS. My father's 355 had 7+ years on the belt job that I did and he had no intentions of doing it for another couple of years (but he sold the car this past April).
11-01-2015, 01:24 PM
#20
Drifting
Hacker is right....and the parts prices (if not NLA) are the reason I'm always on the fence about selling my S4. I enjoy working on the car and driving it - but if values were not rising I'd probably have sold it already. I justify keeping it by telling myself "Sure, the parts are expensive, but since I do almost all work myself I can expect rising value to cover the parts costs over the next 5 to 10 years" (If I'm wrong...let me continue to delude myself). Honestly, my wife and mother are the ones who always talk me back from the edge when I consider selling. Imagine that. But they only understand the values are rising. They don't understand the maintenance costs - even if only considering parts costs.
Here's another way I justify keeping it: New Mustang GT vs. 928 S4. Just grasping the initial purchase price of the new Mustang, sales tax, car payment interest, higher insurance, can't easily DIY the maintenance on the new Mustang, semi-annual county property taxes at least $1200 per year compared to $0 for my S4 because of it's age (and no annual registration fees or e-tests for my 928 because it's registered as an antique vehicle). The S4 is way cheaper to own than the Mustang....yet rarer and more unique than the Mustang (this is important to me).
So, I get to drive a rare classic Porsche that is now increasing in value, instead of an excellent $45000 GT I see everywhere, has insurance and taxes costing more than the parts I need to maintain my S4 - and will depreciate rapidly.
Suddenly the 928 looks like a bargain again.
Here's another way I justify keeping it: New Mustang GT vs. 928 S4. Just grasping the initial purchase price of the new Mustang, sales tax, car payment interest, higher insurance, can't easily DIY the maintenance on the new Mustang, semi-annual county property taxes at least $1200 per year compared to $0 for my S4 because of it's age (and no annual registration fees or e-tests for my 928 because it's registered as an antique vehicle). The S4 is way cheaper to own than the Mustang....yet rarer and more unique than the Mustang (this is important to me).
So, I get to drive a rare classic Porsche that is now increasing in value, instead of an excellent $45000 GT I see everywhere, has insurance and taxes costing more than the parts I need to maintain my S4 - and will depreciate rapidly.
Suddenly the 928 looks like a bargain again.
11-01-2015, 01:25 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Another piece based on little research. Hardly surprising and seems to be the norm these days. Should also mention that forums like this one, help, parts, and technical knowledge are just a tablet or laptop away.
11-01-2015, 01:36 PM
#22
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Here's another way I justify keeping it: New Mustang GT vs. 928 S4. Just grasping the initial purchase price of the new Mustang, sales tax, car payment interest, higher insurance, can't easily DIY the maintenance on the new Mustang, semi-annual county property taxes at least $1200 per year compared to $0 for my S4 because of it's age (and no annual registration fees or e-tests for my 928 because it's registered as an antique vehicle). The S4 is way cheaper to own than the Mustang....yet rarer and more unique than the Mustang (this is important to me).
So, I get to drive a rare classic Porsche that is now increasing in value, instead of an excellent $45000 GT I see everywhere, has insurance and taxes costing more than the parts I need to maintain my S4 - and will depreciate rapidly.
Suddenly the 928 looks like a bargain again.
So, I get to drive a rare classic Porsche that is now increasing in value, instead of an excellent $45000 GT I see everywhere, has insurance and taxes costing more than the parts I need to maintain my S4 - and will depreciate rapidly.
Suddenly the 928 looks like a bargain again.
I recently spent two weeks "living" in Orange, CA driving around my sister-in-laws 335 sport. A move to SoCal has always been in the back of my mind and one major hurdle is all the cars we own. Driving and experiencing a modern German car like that BMW really got me thinking.......it's a possible contender for a car I could buy to cut down my collection and still have a fun car to drive.
Then I had a chat with the sister. High pressure fuel pump $500 + labor. $800 to fix a cup-holder, exhaust rattle is a $1,500 part...... on a 4 year old car with 50k miles on it. You also must have the factory (or clone) computer to install anything since all parts (including the battery) are coded to the car!!!
Now that I think about it, the only reason why this article (and those like it) are BS is they fail to take into account how much more complicated and expensive modern cars are. Talking to mechanics who service just out of warranty German cars, they are starting to form an opinion that all cars made today are throw away pieces. It will reach a point where nobody can fix them, or if they can be fixed the cost will be astronomical.
11-01-2015, 01:46 PM
#23
Race Car
Well done! It's a shame Porsche doesn't make an electric bicycle, even if color-matching handlebars were a $500 option. I converted an old bicycle to electric on the cheap (Hill Topper). Everybody with a car subject to the gas guzzler tax needs to have something like this to meet HAFE (household average fuel economy standards). I think 928 owners also need to have some very simple vehicle to meet a household maintenance anxiety standard.
(Has no one yet substituted an electric motor for their TBF-stricken 928 engine? I'm sure there's plenty of room on the CE panel to wire it up.)
(Has no one yet substituted an electric motor for their TBF-stricken 928 engine? I'm sure there's plenty of room on the CE panel to wire it up.)
I got a bit more machinery near that price point for my commuter.
Would be interesting to see the risk profile/statistics for each around these parts.
11-01-2015, 01:50 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
Dear Mr Seams
I read your assessment of the 928 and was stunned with your obvious lack of knowledge
of 928's. If you had done your homework you would have found that the cars are reliable
with motors that will run 500,000 miles and 99% of the parts are easily available.
The cars are not all that difficult to work on as a DYI person with average skills can one easily keep one the road.
Also 928's have one of the largest network of followers and enthusiast with Rennslist.
Pick on another mark, such as a host of Ferrari's or other Italian cars that the DYI cannot work on.
Cheers
I read your assessment of the 928 and was stunned with your obvious lack of knowledge
of 928's. If you had done your homework you would have found that the cars are reliable
with motors that will run 500,000 miles and 99% of the parts are easily available.
The cars are not all that difficult to work on as a DYI person with average skills can one easily keep one the road.
Also 928's have one of the largest network of followers and enthusiast with Rennslist.
Pick on another mark, such as a host of Ferrari's or other Italian cars that the DYI cannot work on.
Cheers
11-01-2015, 02:18 PM
#25
Drifting
CapeCod.... And you get to risk your life among idiots on their phones, pay insurance, registration, buy gas, and sit in the same traffic.
I chose the Turbo because I HATE!!!!! traffic...and I would rather get my exercise riding to work in less overall time. I do also prefer to not put more CO2, etc. in the air. Over time the Turbo pays for itself. Buying a motorcycle was NEVER a consideration.
I chose the Turbo because I HATE!!!!! traffic...and I would rather get my exercise riding to work in less overall time. I do also prefer to not put more CO2, etc. in the air. Over time the Turbo pays for itself. Buying a motorcycle was NEVER a consideration.
11-01-2015, 02:47 PM
#26
"These are, by far, the most helpful fellow owners (for repairs and maintenance)"
11-01-2015, 03:06 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
I've got to vote with Hacker on this one. When I first read that article I was initially annoyed but then realized that most of his points were spot-on. These cars were expensive, we paid nearly 70K for our '88. So I've never thought of them as "cheap" cars, and never expected parts to be "cheap". Porsche certainly doesn't. But if you view it as an under-valued expensive car, then everything makes more sense.
So here's how I see it: The 928 is superbly engineered, and intended to be maintained rather than used and tossed. Sure, they have a "scary" reputation, all that does is enhance our reputation as "car gods". Haven't you ever gone to a car gathering and felt the hushed silence? And had someone casually wander forward and ask, "Nice car, who does your work?" And haven't you thoroughly enjoyed the expression on their face, and the whispered exchanges when you answer "I do."? It's especially fun at PCA events.
The other point that Hacker makes which we all forget is the utter uselessness of modern cars. Not that there aren't some superbly engineered cars out there, but most of the superb engineering these days is electronic. And there is a fundamental difference between mechanical and electronics: Electronics can easily be encrypted, and mechanical cannot. You want an aftermarket anything for your 2016 Cosmic Whatever? Ha! You can't even imitate a factory module-changer without the factory computer.
Jeez, only $600 for a '89 cluster that shows 21K miles? And it didn't sell??? On the other hand, that is about the last thing that needs replacing... Now those $50 water pumps, Hmmm....
So here's how I see it: The 928 is superbly engineered, and intended to be maintained rather than used and tossed. Sure, they have a "scary" reputation, all that does is enhance our reputation as "car gods". Haven't you ever gone to a car gathering and felt the hushed silence? And had someone casually wander forward and ask, "Nice car, who does your work?" And haven't you thoroughly enjoyed the expression on their face, and the whispered exchanges when you answer "I do."? It's especially fun at PCA events.
The other point that Hacker makes which we all forget is the utter uselessness of modern cars. Not that there aren't some superbly engineered cars out there, but most of the superb engineering these days is electronic. And there is a fundamental difference between mechanical and electronics: Electronics can easily be encrypted, and mechanical cannot. You want an aftermarket anything for your 2016 Cosmic Whatever? Ha! You can't even imitate a factory module-changer without the factory computer.
Jeez, only $600 for a '89 cluster that shows 21K miles? And it didn't sell??? On the other hand, that is about the last thing that needs replacing... Now those $50 water pumps, Hmmm....
11-01-2015, 03:10 PM
#28
Nordschleife Master
...Now that I think about it, the only reason why this article (and those like it) are BS is they fail to take into account how much more complicated and expensive modern cars are. Talking to mechanics who service just out of warranty German cars, they are starting to form an opinion that all cars made today are throw away pieces. It will reach a point where nobody can fix them, or if they can be fixed the cost will be astronomical.
The 928 really isn't all that complicated. It has a fairly large number of systems, but those systems are all independent from each other.
Each system is self-contained. Any problem will be isolated to the system that the problem is in, not carried through to the entire "car management" system.
And the engine management computers are also independent.
You can even swap them back and forth between cars!!! Try that with anything modern.
11-01-2015, 03:29 PM
#29
Race Car
Also, when one starts invoking superb engineering, a few trevails over the years come to mind
Aluminum ball joints
magic blower syndrome/resistor pack
HVAC controller relay
torque tube clamps/Thrust bearing failure
s4 cam cover oil restrictor
B2 server/receiver
K1 spring set
Heck, may just have to go run a forum search on "poorly designed" and see what some luminaries have said in the past regarding certain factory aspects of the 928.
As for m/c or bicycle...personal preference.
I'm often at my desk by 0530 so the morning congestion isn't too much of a factor.
Agree that I'd prefer not to be burning fossil fuels, but I appreciate the extra range and performance.
As for safety, when talking about risks posed by others it is place dependent...and luck/fortune.. Unfortunately I can't get from where I'm at to where I need to go in a reasonable manner without being on major roads.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6431a1.htm
http://dmv.ny.gov/statistic/2014-mot...ashsummary.pdf
http://dmv.ny.gov/statistic/2014-bic...ashsummary.pdf
Aluminum ball joints
magic blower syndrome/resistor pack
HVAC controller relay
torque tube clamps/Thrust bearing failure
s4 cam cover oil restrictor
B2 server/receiver
K1 spring set
Heck, may just have to go run a forum search on "poorly designed" and see what some luminaries have said in the past regarding certain factory aspects of the 928.
As for m/c or bicycle...personal preference.
I'm often at my desk by 0530 so the morning congestion isn't too much of a factor.
Agree that I'd prefer not to be burning fossil fuels, but I appreciate the extra range and performance.
As for safety, when talking about risks posed by others it is place dependent...and luck/fortune.. Unfortunately I can't get from where I'm at to where I need to go in a reasonable manner without being on major roads.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6431a1.htm
http://dmv.ny.gov/statistic/2014-mot...ashsummary.pdf
http://dmv.ny.gov/statistic/2014-bic...ashsummary.pdf
11-01-2015, 03:47 PM
#30
Drifting
Haven't you ever gone to a car gathering and felt the hushed silence? And had someone casually wander forward and ask, "Nice car, who does your work?" And haven't you thoroughly enjoyed the expression on their face, and the whispered exchanges when you answer "I do."?