85 Clutch Removal Problem
02-07-2015, 09:11 PM
#17
Team Owner
I was hoping that the others that had posted suggestions might correct ,
However, eventually your going to bend or break some aluminum, if you keep prying...
since you didnt give any indication of the condition of the TT,
maybe now is a good time to RnR the TT bearings.
If so then this whole job will be easier if you drop out the parts as I have suggested,
then the only hard part will be removing the stub from the crank pilot bearing.
Good luck with your project
However, eventually your going to bend or break some aluminum, if you keep prying...
since you didnt give any indication of the condition of the TT,
maybe now is a good time to RnR the TT bearings.
If so then this whole job will be easier if you drop out the parts as I have suggested,
then the only hard part will be removing the stub from the crank pilot bearing.
Good luck with your project
02-07-2015, 11:44 PM
#18
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I've stopped prying. I was using a bar approx 18" and had blocks of wood in as a fulcrum and "protector pad."
I understand the concept that if it doesn't come when it's supposed to, using too much force is likely to break something else. Learned that one a while back... The hard way.
The sad part (sort of) is that the TT bearings are dead silent. I tried to wiggle it when I was messing with the clutch and there's no play in it.
If I end up yanking the TT, I'll probably replace the shifter ball cups (or whatever it is that gets loose in the shifter rod), but even that isn't all that bad.
Work is going to get in the way for a week or so, then my "Go-to-guy" is out of town for a few days,, so I won't be making any progress soon.
At least it's mid-February, and even if this takes a while, the car wasn't going anywhere anyway, not until the salt is washed off the roads (mid-March at soonest).
Thanks everyone who offered suggestions and advice.
I understand the concept that if it doesn't come when it's supposed to, using too much force is likely to break something else. Learned that one a while back... The hard way.
The sad part (sort of) is that the TT bearings are dead silent. I tried to wiggle it when I was messing with the clutch and there's no play in it.
If I end up yanking the TT, I'll probably replace the shifter ball cups (or whatever it is that gets loose in the shifter rod), but even that isn't all that bad.
Work is going to get in the way for a week or so, then my "Go-to-guy" is out of town for a few days,, so I won't be making any progress soon.
At least it's mid-February, and even if this takes a while, the car wasn't going anywhere anyway, not until the salt is washed off the roads (mid-March at soonest).
Thanks everyone who offered suggestions and advice.
02-08-2015, 03:32 AM
#19
Nordschleife Master
Bolt the PP back on to the flywheel,
try to position the release arm vertical as much as is possible,
put a block of wood up against the release arm,
put a wrench up against the pinch sleeve (as I suggested it be before with only 1 bolt in it through the stub shaft),
The open end of the wrench is now down,
take a nice big thick ratchet strap and put it on the lower part of the wrench, and attach the other end to the forward side of the cross member and tighten.
The wood is the fulcrum, the strap is the pressure.
Tighten down the strap,
once you have a decent amount of pressure smack the bottom of the wrench with a hammer......
Be very careful with this as when that bearing lets go (and it will with this method when done correctly), things will go flying.......
try to position the release arm vertical as much as is possible,
put a block of wood up against the release arm,
put a wrench up against the pinch sleeve (as I suggested it be before with only 1 bolt in it through the stub shaft),
The open end of the wrench is now down,
take a nice big thick ratchet strap and put it on the lower part of the wrench, and attach the other end to the forward side of the cross member and tighten.
The wood is the fulcrum, the strap is the pressure.
Tighten down the strap,
once you have a decent amount of pressure smack the bottom of the wrench with a hammer......
Be very careful with this as when that bearing lets go (and it will with this method when done correctly), things will go flying.......
02-08-2015, 12:50 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Hmm...
Constant pressure with a ratchet strap, vibration from the hammer hit.
That's an interesting concept. I was doing a couple different things, but not that.
And I seem to have the 'right' gap between the TT and the short shaft.
It looks a lot like the first few pics in this:
http://members.rennlist.com/jeifert/DD-CLUTCH-REP.html
Again, thanks for the suggestions and ideas.
Constant pressure with a ratchet strap, vibration from the hammer hit.
That's an interesting concept. I was doing a couple different things, but not that.
And I seem to have the 'right' gap between the TT and the short shaft.
It looks a lot like the first few pics in this:
http://members.rennlist.com/jeifert/DD-CLUTCH-REP.html
Again, thanks for the suggestions and ideas.
03-05-2015, 06:48 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Okay, an update. Finally.
Due to work constraints, and the fact that my "go to" mechanic decided to go to Mexico for a week, it took until today to actually make progress on it.
Block of wood against the release arm, lever against the coupler (bolt in place), turnbuckles to put tension on the lever. With enough tension on the lever to start to crush the wood (could hear it cracking), my tech then hit the short shaft with his "Rattle gun." It's basically a miniature jack hammer. It works wonders for vibrating stuff loose.
As it did here. It wasn't easy or fun. We had to take different angles, and reposition the lever a couple times, but the short shaft came back.
It pulled the pilot bearing (or what was left of it) out of the crank. The inner race is seized onto the shaft, just like in the picture thread I linked above.
But it's out. The flywheel. intermediate plate and pressure plate all look pretty good and the friction surfaces look ok.
Once, more, a huge thank you for all the suggestions and advice. Without you guys, I'd be lost(er).
Due to work constraints, and the fact that my "go to" mechanic decided to go to Mexico for a week, it took until today to actually make progress on it.
Block of wood against the release arm, lever against the coupler (bolt in place), turnbuckles to put tension on the lever. With enough tension on the lever to start to crush the wood (could hear it cracking), my tech then hit the short shaft with his "Rattle gun." It's basically a miniature jack hammer. It works wonders for vibrating stuff loose.
As it did here. It wasn't easy or fun. We had to take different angles, and reposition the lever a couple times, but the short shaft came back.
It pulled the pilot bearing (or what was left of it) out of the crank. The inner race is seized onto the shaft, just like in the picture thread I linked above.
But it's out. The flywheel. intermediate plate and pressure plate all look pretty good and the friction surfaces look ok.
Once, more, a huge thank you for all the suggestions and advice. Without you guys, I'd be lost(er).
03-06-2015, 09:45 AM
#24
Team Owner
glad you got the stub out,
is it too far gone to be reused?
Please post a picture of the race infused stub
is it too far gone to be reused?
Please post a picture of the race infused stub
03-06-2015, 10:02 AM
#25
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Don't know about the shaft yet. I haven't had a chance to cut the bearing off.
I will keep you guys posted.
I really hate "help me" threads that never have a resolution.
03-06-2015, 08:53 PM
#27
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Well, it looks like I got lucky.
Bearing looks like...
Crap.
There's a lot of light surface rust in the whole assembly. The plug in the TT for the rear clamp bolt (long coupler clamp) was missing, so moisture got in.
I'm guessing that's what destroyed the bearing. Little bit of rust, then spin it...
Not good.
I made the first cut in the outer race, then started the second. I used a pick to move a ball out of the way, and the rest all rolled to one side...
And fell out. The race had enough play with the missing bearings that I didn't need to cut it.
Duh.
The inner race had actually come off about 1/3 to 1/2 way during the shaft removal. So I just took a brass hammer and smacked first one side, then the other and worked it off.
There's a little discoloration at the base of the narrow part, but it doesn't seem to be pitted. Everything looks good. (where's the "relieved and wiping brow" smiley?)
Bearing looks like...
Crap.
There's a lot of light surface rust in the whole assembly. The plug in the TT for the rear clamp bolt (long coupler clamp) was missing, so moisture got in.
I'm guessing that's what destroyed the bearing. Little bit of rust, then spin it...
Not good.
I made the first cut in the outer race, then started the second. I used a pick to move a ball out of the way, and the rest all rolled to one side...
And fell out. The race had enough play with the missing bearings that I didn't need to cut it.
Duh.
The inner race had actually come off about 1/3 to 1/2 way during the shaft removal. So I just took a brass hammer and smacked first one side, then the other and worked it off.
There's a little discoloration at the base of the narrow part, but it doesn't seem to be pitted. Everything looks good. (where's the "relieved and wiping brow" smiley?)
03-06-2015, 09:09 PM
#28
Team Owner
you can dress the pilot surface with some 600 grit and oil need better pictures of the shaft splines, and your disc splines
03-07-2015, 03:24 PM
#29
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Shaft cleaned up really nice. Hoppe's #9 is some pretty good stuff.
The "rust" on the shaft itself was simply "rust dust" from other places. It wiped off.
The splines on the shaft and in the discs are in very good shape.
You can see how flat the tops are and how sharp the shoulders are in the above pic. That's what it looks like the whole way around, and up and down. There's a little bit of "shiny" where the discs have moved back and forth, but it's nothing more than surface polishing. I can't feel any step, or groove, or shoulder or any sort of actual wear. The splines in the discs are the same.
The back disc is new enough that there's still writing visible on the friction surface.
I don't have any records on this from the PO, but I'm guessing that the discs and shaft (maybe the intermediate plate and PP too) have been replaced not too many miles ago. There's no way this clutch has ~70k on it.
Whatever "fine, fine mechanic" who did that didn't bother to replace the pilot bearing, TOB, or release ball cup.
Bearings & cup (& super clutch grease) on way from Roger. Plugs for the bellhousing & TT too (TT plug is MIA, BH plug is shot).
One more time, you guys rock. Thanks a bazillion.
The "rust" on the shaft itself was simply "rust dust" from other places. It wiped off.
The splines on the shaft and in the discs are in very good shape.
You can see how flat the tops are and how sharp the shoulders are in the above pic. That's what it looks like the whole way around, and up and down. There's a little bit of "shiny" where the discs have moved back and forth, but it's nothing more than surface polishing. I can't feel any step, or groove, or shoulder or any sort of actual wear. The splines in the discs are the same.
The back disc is new enough that there's still writing visible on the friction surface.
I don't have any records on this from the PO, but I'm guessing that the discs and shaft (maybe the intermediate plate and PP too) have been replaced not too many miles ago. There's no way this clutch has ~70k on it.
Whatever "fine, fine mechanic" who did that didn't bother to replace the pilot bearing, TOB, or release ball cup.
Bearings & cup (& super clutch grease) on way from Roger. Plugs for the bellhousing & TT too (TT plug is MIA, BH plug is shot).
One more time, you guys rock. Thanks a bazillion.
03-07-2015, 06:37 PM
#30
Team Owner
when you go to refit the clutch assembly,
I would suggest that you do this first.
just use the stub shaft and the TOB guide collar,
fit the stub and guide into the pilot bearing,
bolt the guide tube up then fit the clamp tube, install the bolts,
then snug tighten the rear clamp bolt,
leave the front clamp bolt loose,
then seat the stub into the pilot bearing,
then back it out 3MM,
then mark the stub shaft to line up with the rear side of the guide tube.
Then snug the front clamp bolt.
NOTE This dry fit will assure that you have the stub correctly positioned,
so it wont bottom out into the pilot bearing.
Once all of this is done then remove the clamp bolts and the stub and guide tube,
and install the clutch.
NOTE the pilot bearing is positioned so it`s flush with the rear of the crank.
use some of the grease to lubricate the bearing surface of the stub to bearing.
NOTE you can reduce the amount of force that you use to install the pilot bearing by placing it in the freezer ,
use a Mapp gas torch to heat the end of the crank.
(it just has to be 150 degrees F or so be careful of the rear main seal)
This step has the benefit of reducing the hammering effect that the thrust bearing and web have to take.
NOTE use a tooth brush to smear the clutch spline grease onto the stub and disc splines,
make sure all surfaces are wet . it wont fling off.
The other info I posted about sliding the front bell housing back on the bell bolts ,
will also delete the need to hammer out the pins in the flywheel,
these forces also are transmitted to the thrust bearings.
I would suggest that you do this first.
just use the stub shaft and the TOB guide collar,
fit the stub and guide into the pilot bearing,
bolt the guide tube up then fit the clamp tube, install the bolts,
then snug tighten the rear clamp bolt,
leave the front clamp bolt loose,
then seat the stub into the pilot bearing,
then back it out 3MM,
then mark the stub shaft to line up with the rear side of the guide tube.
Then snug the front clamp bolt.
NOTE This dry fit will assure that you have the stub correctly positioned,
so it wont bottom out into the pilot bearing.
Once all of this is done then remove the clamp bolts and the stub and guide tube,
and install the clutch.
NOTE the pilot bearing is positioned so it`s flush with the rear of the crank.
use some of the grease to lubricate the bearing surface of the stub to bearing.
NOTE you can reduce the amount of force that you use to install the pilot bearing by placing it in the freezer ,
use a Mapp gas torch to heat the end of the crank.
(it just has to be 150 degrees F or so be careful of the rear main seal)
This step has the benefit of reducing the hammering effect that the thrust bearing and web have to take.
NOTE use a tooth brush to smear the clutch spline grease onto the stub and disc splines,
make sure all surfaces are wet . it wont fling off.
The other info I posted about sliding the front bell housing back on the bell bolts ,
will also delete the need to hammer out the pins in the flywheel,
these forces also are transmitted to the thrust bearings.