Bmw635

Thanks for some interesting perspective.

I think my wife's nagging problem is the small space we have with too many old cars (5) and a trailer. May be she'd rather I have only 1-2 cars even Ferrari than having too many cars I don't need. May be because of the small space that's why I lost interest in playing around. May be I need to find a barn to stash these old cars and have work space to set up lift, room to roam around. Still have a spare engine over 10 yrs that I haven't tear down to build into a monster for my 740- May be lack of work space which is a hint of nagging wife?

This 997 is going for about 1/2 of the 993 that's why this thread arise. The Ferrari name came up because I found a TestaRossa for $31k 1-2yrs ago from an estate sale that sat for a long time but found very few resources online that gave me the courage to bring it back to life. During that time F355, F360 were going for about $30-40k , not double what it is today.

As for IMS and PDK, I am seeing PDK is only in 08 - newer (per Wiki) but lots of discussion in the forum with 05-07 cars also so I am not clear. I see lots of conflicting information about IMS including: prev maint, design , rebuild failure. The failure rate for 996 is about 10% and 5% for 997 so I think to be safe, I'll keep the 928 blow it into a 500 hp monster and if I blow up the engine, it's still a cheaper alternative. Thanks for all the perspective.

If anybody is interested in this 997, pm me as I test drove it and think it can be bought for a price of a 928 GT as I made an offer and seller told me to go up a little more as they're picking up their '15 991 today.

dr bob

I was hoping that Herman would jump in here, since he has both a 997 and a GTS 928. When he decided to attend the 928 event in Alberta last year, he (and Roger) went in the 997. His is PDK and likely a .2 though.

For instant reliability, I'd pick the 5 year old car over a 25 year old car regardless of badging. I'd also jump into my own 928 and drive it anywhere. Knowing that the brains are rebuilt already, and all the maintenence is current, it's lived in a dry and warm climate-stable environment all its life, etc., makes that an easy decision. The 997 has an advantage in that you can drop it off at any Porsche dealer for service and repair, and there are a whole lot of specialty shops near you (including 928 Guru Greg Brown) that can take care of it if you aren't satisfied with dealer services.

The 928 did SoCal DD service for me for well over a decade. It was my only car for almost ten years. Meanwhile K worries constantly that I'll get stranded someplace in the 928. I don't.

Petza914

I'm new to the 928 tank but have 2 997.1 C2S cars - a RUF Supercharged one with lots of mods (exhaust, noselift, suspernsion, etc) and a relatively stock one except for some Vorsteiner body parts, which is my wife's DD. She has had it for about 2.5 years and drives it every day, multiple trips per day (kids to school, kids home from school, dance, gymnastics, grocery store, etc) as well as some 6-15 hour road trips. It now has about 65,000 miles on it with 25,000 of those being hers as we bought it 3rd hand. From a reliability perspective, it has been great - the only things we've done aside from tires & fluid changes was a water pump at 60,000 miles (likely the original) and renewed the brakes.

To answer some of your other questions, PDK was offered in the 997.2 cars which started in 2009. 2005-2008 are all 997.1 cars. Early build 2005 cars have the smaller IMS bearing which has a higher failure rate, but it's serviceable by removing the transmission and then it can be extracted through the opening and replaced by one of the ceramic ballbearing versions from LN Engineering & Flat 6 Innovations. From late 2005 through 2008 the cars received a newer larger bearing that has a very low failure rate. You can go to the Porsche IMS lawsuit webpage with a VIN # to determine whether a car you're looking at has the smaller, older bearing or the larger, newer bearing. If the vehicle is excluded from the class then it has the larger bearing.

I would think that a 7-10 year old car (997.1) would have the better reliability compared to the 25 year old car (928), but it seems that most of the failures in the 928 are annoyances and not those that strand you. I would say the same of the 997. Some '05 & '06 997s have a bad starter wiring harness that results in a slow crank problem, especially when the engine is warm - replacing that harness is the answer but since it goes through so much of the engine electronics, it's about a $700 proposition because of the labor. If doing that job, change the Air/Oil Separator at the same time as half way into the harness job you have to remove it and it's something that can fail in the 40,000-80,000 mile range. If you have a well cared for 928 that you love, there's really no reason to sell it - just add a 997 to the stable as a more regular driver and enjoy both cars (I like your barn idea).

Let me know if you have any other specific questions I can answer.

Bmw635

Dr Bob, thanks for the confidence in the 928. Bullet proof if you preempt expected failure? My stroker Euro 635 that I built is more reliable than the M635 cars but still pump out the same hp as the Euro M6 and faster than US M6. I never worry about getting stranded or unexpected breakdown as its Bosch Motronic like the S4 except for single DME.

Pete, thanks for the detail info- exactly what I could use. Selller said the starter or alternator harness (forgot) was replaced under warranty to the tune of $3000. Great info on the VIN check in recall, lawsuit. I didn't see OSV or WP in work receipts. Come to think of it , no trans service either, the majority is brake, tire, oil change only. Car is the wife's DD so it may not have raced but definitely lack of care as some of the things you pointed out.

I read the 997.1 still have some weakness in the IMS and only completely trouble free with the newer engine model in the 997.2. Does Porsche require you to come to dealer for some of the stupid maintenance like replacing battery to reset computer charging alternator, key memory programming, brake flush, alignment, air suspension replacement, etc.... that is required on BMW? Are you able to troubleshoot most problem without being at the mercy of Porsche's diagnostic computer if you're a skilled mechanic? Most BMW mechanic are only good at replacing parts and rely on computer to trouble shoot.

I have a complete set of BMW computer to do everything from factory including converting my 740 to 6spd manual if i wanted that BMW never made worldwide. I could do a lot of things that even the dealer can't so it saves me a lot of time and money. I am afraid being a handicap in this Porsche marque and at a disadvantage for being lack of knowledge of Porsche's inherent characters.

Petza914

Neither of my 997s has been to a dealer since I've owned them. Unless you have a car that's still under some type of transferable Porsche extended warranty or are buying a CPO car from a dealer, I don't think you need to worry about having dealer service done. The Porsche equivalent of your BMW diagnostic setup is called Durametric and they have an Enthusiast version which is a few hundred dollars that is limited to 3 VINs can view and reset error codes, and do some diagnostics, but has some functional limitations (no coding). The Professional version, which is what I have and use is about $700 can be used on an unlimited # of vins has all the features of the Enthusiast version, but also lets you do Coding, which is essentially writing commands into the electronic control modules of the car, like enabling courtesy window functions (roll up windows and lock doors when holding the lock button on the key down and vice versa when unlocking), enabling the side markers to blink with the turn signals, upgrade your steering wheel to one with multi-function button and enabling the functionality in the car, etc. You can also actuate modules in the car, like the ABS pump when doing a complete brake system bleed. If you go to www.durametric.com you can view a comparison between the 2 versions. What you buy is the cable that connects to your laptop and the car - the software is a free download from their website. If you know you'll be getting a 997, you may want to buy the Pro cable in advance as it lets you look at the DME of any car you're considering to see the total hours, if it has any range 1-6 overrevs on the engine, any stored fault codes, etc. It's not a substitute for a complete PPI, but may help you eliminate some cars as candidates before shelling out a few hundred bucks for a PPI to get this info, which would eliminate a car anyway. Plus, when you go look at someone's car for sale and hook it up, they know you're serious and that you know what your doing and may get better information out of them about any issues it has had, maintenance, etc

In a nutshell, you won't be handicapped into having only dealers service your 997 and can do a lot of it yourself with the proper tools, Durametric being one of them. Also, similar to the support you receive on your 928 on this forum, we have a similar group for the 997s and have our own Mr Merlin's, Dr Bobs, and Mark Andersons. I don't think we're up to their level of knowing every nut, bolt, detail, and idiosyncracy of the cars yet, but we're working on it with Macster, USMC, and others. We've also built a decent database of DIY service and repair step-by-steps.

Also, although the 997.2 doesn't have an IMS it's not without its potential issues, with one being lubricant washing from the cylinder walls due to the dfi injection, as well as one of the 2 fuel pumps failing prematurely - yes, there are 2 of them, kind of a normal one and then a high pressure one used by the dfi. No car is without issues, you just need to understand what they are so you can preempt them.

Let us know what you decide to do.

dr bob

My 'vote of confidence' is for the car I've had in my care for 18 years. During that time, it's been very regularly attended to, all with the idea that it needs to be ready for anything. The LH brain faied on me for instance, but it happened in my garage. Knowing it was coming, I had a spare already rebuilt and ready to put in. In hindsight I should have just installed the rebuilt one, but it was an experiment I guess.

There's plenty of casual maintenance that goes on with the car on a shedule, stuff like relgious brake and power steering fluid changes, AT services, plus oil and coolant. Brakes are inspected regulary, battery gets an annual health check as part of a larger electrical system annual maintenence. Belts and hoses are ALL replaced every other timing belt service. There's a lot of collateral (WYAIT) stuff that happens along the way too. LOTS of inspection.

In one of my past lives, I wrote software that tracks the condition of large rotating machinery in real-time, then generates predictive maintenance requirements so that there is no unscheduled down-time. That started with an effort to predict reliability and uptime for automated manufacturing equipment in the late 1970's, before we had PC's and desktop spreadsheet applications. Keeping a single car alive and well is child's play, in the giant scheme of equipment things. I haven't sold a car with less than 200k on it in the last 30 years, and all were mechanically sound when they went on to their next homes.

It's been a lesson for K, who has always bought new cars with extended warranties, then traded them in when the warranty expired. Her current 4Runner with 130k on it just got a whole brake system maintenance, with new rotors and pads, calipers cleaned and lubricated, new brake hoses, and full fluid flush-and-replace. Under $250 all in, and good for another 150k before another 'major'. So long as I keep it running and looking like new, there won't be any need for replacement.


So, can you have a bullet-proof uber-reliable 928? Sure. There might be some catch-up work to be done before you are there, but it's certainly possible. Do we start at the front and work our way back to rear bumperettes, or at the bottom and work our way up to the roof antenna? Don't leave anything to chance.

Gary Knox

DrBob,

You referred to "Herman" in your post above. I believer you meant Jim Mayzurk. I KNOW he has a 997 and did have, may still have a 928 GTS. Hope Jim will hop in here, as he is a VERY knowledgable owner of both series.

77tony

IIRC Herman K has had some older 911's, 356's but not any 997's+ and he does own a 94 928 GTS. Jim M currently has a 991 C2S and 928 GTS unless he has sold it. T

Mongo

I just had a neighbor buy a W208 CLK55 AMG. Believe me, the reliability question comparing another car to a 928 has popped into my head lately too.

Be sure to do research on the 997.1s and be aware that the early cars suffer from intermediate shaft bearing issues just like the 996. Unfortunately, I believe it's even more $$$$ and difficulty to replace the IMS bearing since the engine casing will have to be split to gain access to it. We are talking rebuild territory here...

77tony

Exception being the 996 turbo's that did not share that problem. T

Mongo

996 Turbos used a block derived from the Porsche GT1 famous Le Mans car. IMS issues are irrelevant with that motor.

Bmw635

Man, did I just opened a can of worm? 996TT is relatively solid since they're race engine? One of my friend in Los Angeles is trying to sell me his 993 vertible but I only want coupe. Another friend in Dallas is considering selling his 996TT with only 20k miles (he bought it for the brag, not drive) but I think it has more problem sitting, not getting regular warm up cycle.

The AMG was being considered since couple of my 740 buddies bought them for the factory Sc that could upgrade close to 600 hp but I don't like the handling.

Is there a strong forum support group outside of Durametrics? The Bmw tool was developed by Bmw so it has a lot of resources which I used to do my SC 740 and could have done the 6spd manual but the power output for this big sedan suit better with AT. If there was some coding error, it would brick the car but luckily, we got BMW engineers to assist.

Still waiting for the Vin from seller to check for the Ims to see if it has the larger, more expensive labor bearing or ..... Either case , it's not looking good base on the input here. Thanks to all for the input, lots of good stuff here that I didn't know existed.

Petza914

Any early 997.1 that uses the same small IMS bearing from the 996s is so serviceable unit with removal of the transmission, just like it is in a 996. Any 997.1 that needs to be disassembled for IMS bearing replacement has the larger bearing with an extremely low failure rate, like less than 1%. The 996TT, the 997TT, the GT2, and the 997.1 GT3 are derived from the Mezger race engine and do not have an IMS. The 2005-2008 c2, c2S, c4, and c4Scall have IMS shafts and bearings. A number of the '05 cars, especially the Ss have the larger bearing so check the lawsuit website and don't automatically rule out any '05. Do your research so you know what you're talking get about, get your PPI, etc.

dr bob

I think you are correct. ??What was my name again??

FRUNKenstein

Very, very true. People talk about the 996 as if "996" is a four-letter word. Mine may be the best car I've ever owned (out of around 100 cars over the years). My 928 has been very needy mechanically since I got it, but I fully expect it to get much better once it's had the proper attention paid to it.