928S vs. Z28 Camaro
01-07-2015, 07:31 PM
#31
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Also this gear pattern was not unique to the 928. The De tomaso Pantera had it as well as some of the earlier ferraris long before the 928. I once read that in the high speed cars there was a fear of mis-shifting down to 2nd instead of 4th in the normal pattern whereas the 928 provided a straight push up to 4th (more direct and safer)
From wiki:
"Dog leg layout gearboxes are desirable on performance cars because in road racing more frequent shifting occurs from second to third than from first to second gear.
Examples of cars that have used this pattern for performance reasons include the BMW M535, Early 635CSi (non-US) and (non-US) M3 E30, BMW 2002 Tii and Turbo, Fiat Dino 2.4 (ZF Box), Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16 and 2.5-16, Mercedes-Benz 300 CE-24, Ferrari 308 GTB/GTS, Ferrari Testarossa, Porsche 914, early 911, 924 Turbo (all featuring Getrag gearboxes), Cosworth Vega, Porsche 928, Talbot Sunbeam Lotus, Vauxhall Firenza HPF, Lancia Fulvia, Lancia Stratos, Lamborghini Countach, Maserati Biturbo, and De Tomaso Pantera.
Despite the performance benefits, non-performance-oriented cars available with the dog-leg shift pattern were produced. Examples include the Ford Model A, Subaru 360, Datsun 160J Hardtop SSS, 74–77 Datsun 610 SSS, 78–80 Datsun 200sx, 1980 Datsun 210 Wagon (built during the 210/310 crossover), 78–80 Datsun 510, Citroën 2CV, Mercedes 190, Mercedes-Benz 200D, Mercedes-Benz 300CE, Mercedes-Benz 320CE, Mercedes-Benz E320 sedan -94 and the 1976–77 Oldsmobile Cutlass or Pontiac LeMans with the 260 V8, the 76–77 Chevrolet Vega or Pontiac Astre, 76–79 Chevrolet Monza or Buick Skyhawk or Oldsmobile Starfire, BMW E21 and the 77–79 Pontiac Sunbird. The early model Renault 4 had a distinctive 'umbrella handle' dog-leg shift, which proved ideal for urban driving, though the shift was later changed to the 'conventional' pattern."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-leg_gearbox
01-07-2015, 07:45 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I can't seem to find the video but a year ago I watched another review by motorweek for a red 928 S4, they had good things to say about it.
There is always going to be false information out there. There was a case about the Suzuki Samurai that was reviewed by CU (Consumer Union) claiming that the Samurai was unstable and very easy to roll over. Suzuki end up suing them and taking them to court. Videos showed that they had to try very hard to get the wheels to lift of the ground after doing over 100 test drives on the same test course.
It just shows that for what ever reason claims could be purposely false.
There is always going to be false information out there. There was a case about the Suzuki Samurai that was reviewed by CU (Consumer Union) claiming that the Samurai was unstable and very easy to roll over. Suzuki end up suing them and taking them to court. Videos showed that they had to try very hard to get the wheels to lift of the ground after doing over 100 test drives on the same test course.
It just shows that for what ever reason claims could be purposely false.
01-08-2015, 11:23 AM
#33
Instructor
01-08-2015, 11:29 AM
#34
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01-08-2015, 08:29 PM
#35
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From wiki:
"Dog leg layout gearboxes are desirable on performance cars because in road racing more frequent shifting occurs from second to third than from first to second gear.
Examples of cars that have used this pattern for performance reasons include the BMW M535, Early 635CSi (non-US) and (non-US) M3 E30, BMW 2002 Tii and Turbo, Fiat Dino 2.4 (ZF Box), Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16 and 2.5-16, Mercedes-Benz 300 CE-24, Ferrari 308 GTB/GTS, Ferrari Testarossa, Porsche 914, early 911, 924 Turbo (all featuring Getrag gearboxes), Cosworth Vega, Porsche 928, Talbot Sunbeam Lotus, Vauxhall Firenza HPF, Lancia Fulvia, Lancia Stratos, Lamborghini Countach, Maserati Biturbo, and De Tomaso Pantera.
Despite the performance benefits, non-performance-oriented cars available with the dog-leg shift pattern were produced. Examples include the Ford Model A, Subaru 360, Datsun 160J Hardtop SSS, 74–77 Datsun 610 SSS, 78–80 Datsun 200sx, 1980 Datsun 210 Wagon (built during the 210/310 crossover), 78–80 Datsun 510, Citroën 2CV, Mercedes 190, Mercedes-Benz 200D, Mercedes-Benz 300CE, Mercedes-Benz 320CE, Mercedes-Benz E320 sedan -94 and the 1976–77 Oldsmobile Cutlass or Pontiac LeMans with the 260 V8, the 76–77 Chevrolet Vega or Pontiac Astre, 76–79 Chevrolet Monza or Buick Skyhawk or Oldsmobile Starfire, BMW E21 and the 77–79 Pontiac Sunbird. The early model Renault 4 had a distinctive 'umbrella handle' dog-leg shift, which proved ideal for urban driving, though the shift was later changed to the 'conventional' pattern."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-leg_gearbox
"Dog leg layout gearboxes are desirable on performance cars because in road racing more frequent shifting occurs from second to third than from first to second gear.
Examples of cars that have used this pattern for performance reasons include the BMW M535, Early 635CSi (non-US) and (non-US) M3 E30, BMW 2002 Tii and Turbo, Fiat Dino 2.4 (ZF Box), Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16 and 2.5-16, Mercedes-Benz 300 CE-24, Ferrari 308 GTB/GTS, Ferrari Testarossa, Porsche 914, early 911, 924 Turbo (all featuring Getrag gearboxes), Cosworth Vega, Porsche 928, Talbot Sunbeam Lotus, Vauxhall Firenza HPF, Lancia Fulvia, Lancia Stratos, Lamborghini Countach, Maserati Biturbo, and De Tomaso Pantera.
Despite the performance benefits, non-performance-oriented cars available with the dog-leg shift pattern were produced. Examples include the Ford Model A, Subaru 360, Datsun 160J Hardtop SSS, 74–77 Datsun 610 SSS, 78–80 Datsun 200sx, 1980 Datsun 210 Wagon (built during the 210/310 crossover), 78–80 Datsun 510, Citroën 2CV, Mercedes 190, Mercedes-Benz 200D, Mercedes-Benz 300CE, Mercedes-Benz 320CE, Mercedes-Benz E320 sedan -94 and the 1976–77 Oldsmobile Cutlass or Pontiac LeMans with the 260 V8, the 76–77 Chevrolet Vega or Pontiac Astre, 76–79 Chevrolet Monza or Buick Skyhawk or Oldsmobile Starfire, BMW E21 and the 77–79 Pontiac Sunbird. The early model Renault 4 had a distinctive 'umbrella handle' dog-leg shift, which proved ideal for urban driving, though the shift was later changed to the 'conventional' pattern."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-leg_gearbox
these comparisons are junk because so much depends on the drivers. back then there were so few drivers that were even remotely capable, specially for these tests.
01-09-2015, 07:29 PM
#36
Pro
I remember the Z28 and then the IROC Z being all over the car mags back then... lot's of hype and made me want to own one.
I had a 72 Camaro SS/RS manual. It was so light in the back and I remember how easy the rear wheels would break free... wouldn't dare push it around a bend but burning rubber down the road was fun. Based on the after-footage in this comparison vid, it looks like the test driver had at least one practice lap with the Z where he was establishing the limits of it, spinning it out. I didn't see footage where they established the 928 limits before the run. Maybe too expensive for them to crash.
I had a 72 Camaro SS/RS manual. It was so light in the back and I remember how easy the rear wheels would break free... wouldn't dare push it around a bend but burning rubber down the road was fun. Based on the after-footage in this comparison vid, it looks like the test driver had at least one practice lap with the Z where he was establishing the limits of it, spinning it out. I didn't see footage where they established the 928 limits before the run. Maybe too expensive for them to crash.
01-10-2015, 01:04 AM
#38
Administrator - "Tyson"
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04-01-2015, 05:28 AM
#40
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The test in the video has all kinds of problems. First, what you can't see is the **** stain on the front seat of the Camaro. This is what happens when a driver tries to throw a live axle coupe around a track at high speed. It is scary and results in bladder control issues. New Camaros have independent rear suspension, so GM has learned a few things since '83.
The Camaro is being over driven to the absolute limit and has nothing left of the performance envelope.
The 928 is being under-driven and has much more left of the performance envelope.
The Camaro pulls a faster track time but does so with little or no safety margin. One slight mistake and it will wreck.
The 928 clearly has more room to perform and in a couple of the turns they are clearly bleeding off speed from lack of experience with this car. Those of us with experience learn to trust the 928 in hard turning, let the car find it's line and use power properly.
.
04-01-2015, 01:27 PM
#41
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I have to agree that would be an interesting test. Better yet an R7U Players car.
The test in the video has all kinds of problems. First, what you can't see is the **** stain on the front seat of the Camaro. This is what happens when a driver tries to throw a live axle coupe around a track at high speed. It is scary and results in bladder control issues. New Camaros have independent rear suspension, so GM has learned a few things since '83.
The Camaro is being over driven to the absolute limit and has nothing left of the performance envelope.
The 928 is being under-driven and has much more left of the performance envelope.
The Camaro pulls a faster track time but does so with little or no safety margin. One slight mistake and it will wreck.
The 928 clearly has more room to perform and in a couple of the turns they are clearly bleeding off speed from lack of experience with this car. Those of us with experience learn to trust the 928 in hard turning, let the car find it's line and use power properly.
.
The test in the video has all kinds of problems. First, what you can't see is the **** stain on the front seat of the Camaro. This is what happens when a driver tries to throw a live axle coupe around a track at high speed. It is scary and results in bladder control issues. New Camaros have independent rear suspension, so GM has learned a few things since '83.
The Camaro is being over driven to the absolute limit and has nothing left of the performance envelope.
The 928 is being under-driven and has much more left of the performance envelope.
The Camaro pulls a faster track time but does so with little or no safety margin. One slight mistake and it will wreck.
The 928 clearly has more room to perform and in a couple of the turns they are clearly bleeding off speed from lack of experience with this car. Those of us with experience learn to trust the 928 in hard turning, let the car find it's line and use power properly.
.
.
.
04-01-2015, 09:39 PM
#42
Intermediate
Let's all take a deep breath here...
Anyone on this site is an unabashed fan of the 928, and being one you feel the need to defend this underappreciated car against all comers. I don't disagree that the Z was apparently driven closer to the ragged edge than the shark. Despite the narrative, the video seems to show this. Let's be honest, Ford and Chevy are good at building a car that can be great at one or two things. "Yeah, we developed this Cadillac at the Nurburgring". But would you want to drive it every day? I've had many great sportscars, but the one car I enjoyed driving the most was a pretty beat up 928. Yup, they're a pain in the *** to keep running well, but there's a huge amount of satisfaction to being able to do so. BTW, my current 928 may soon be on the market for my inability to do just that. Won't stop me from trying another one tho! 
04-03-2015, 12:52 AM
#43
Anyone on this site is an unabashed fan of the 928, and being one you feel the need to defend this underappreciated car against all comers. I don't disagree that the Z was apparently driven closer to the ragged edge than the shark. Despite the narrative, the video seems to show this. Let's be honest, Ford and Chevy are good at building a car that can be great at one or two things. "Yeah, we developed this Cadillac at the Nurburgring". But would you want to drive it every day? I've had many great sportscars, but the one car I enjoyed driving the most was a pretty beat up 928. Yup, they're a pain in the *** to keep running well, but there's a huge amount of satisfaction to being able to do so. BTW, my current 928 may soon be on the market for my inability to do just that. Won't stop me from trying another one tho!
\Lets not forget the disclaimer: Paraphrasing I think- a more experienced 928 driver may have turned these results around.
tino
05-03-2015, 02:20 PM
#44
Race Car
Retro Review: '83 928S Vs. Z28
I don't think this has been posted before.
Don't you just love MotorWeek?
(I swear the forum ate this post the first time I tried to make it.)
Don't you just love MotorWeek?
(I swear the forum ate this post the first time I tried to make it.)
