93 928 gts oil consumption
03-13-2014 | 06:54 PM
#106
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Greg - In your reply to me you mix in lots about Colin... what I installed on my car didn't come from Colin (or have anything to do with Colin), its configured differently and operates differently and was completely independently conceived & implemented - the only thing in common is the vacuum pump model.
You say you re-read the thread, but now you feel you need to tell me to "**** Off"?
I have never been uncivil to you - anywhere, ever.
I am unconvinced by your argument so far - thats all I have said, I also said I'm willing to be convinced but I haven't seen much evidence to that end yet.
I do trust that you have seen more 928 engines apart than virtually enybody else. I think I can also trust that you haven't played much with vacuum pumped systems because as you told us you decided against it very early on...
I'm not proposing a vacuum pump as a panacea, and have noted my real concerns on this. No they aren't the same as your concerns. You seem to equate all levels of vacuum as being the same which I think is a bit silly. Mild vacuum is little diferent than driving the car at higher elevations that the car was designed to operate at - so how destructive could it be.
So like I said at the start you are overblowing the concern based on that alone - that's about as aggressive as I have been on this issue. You seem to feel the need to escalate this to a direct personal attack - well I won't do that.
What do I do for a living? - I'm an engineer: so I value data and a technical rationale that I can believe in. But I've been around long enough to know things don't always work the way the theory seems to initially indicate - so I also value direct experience from those who have done it.
I value your expertise, and I'd value more details on your arguments - where they clash with what seems logical I'd like to try to understand why... thats where I'm at. I've been clear all along that I have results that I like - and a belief that mild vacuum is not damaging (based on the cars original design envelope). I've given that rationale why - and you can see that anyway I've stayed on the milder vacuum side out of caution.
I don't appreciate the personal attack - I think its very misplaced on your part.
You seem to think I should believe everything you say on face value - and you know in general on most things I would tend to.. however when I see a red flag of something that doesn't make sense to me and we seem to be heading off on a strange tangent - I start to question everything... thats just the way I am, and that's what I get paid for in my day job.
Alan
You say you re-read the thread, but now you feel you need to tell me to "**** Off"?
I have never been uncivil to you - anywhere, ever.
I am unconvinced by your argument so far - thats all I have said, I also said I'm willing to be convinced but I haven't seen much evidence to that end yet.
I do trust that you have seen more 928 engines apart than virtually enybody else. I think I can also trust that you haven't played much with vacuum pumped systems because as you told us you decided against it very early on...
I'm not proposing a vacuum pump as a panacea, and have noted my real concerns on this. No they aren't the same as your concerns. You seem to equate all levels of vacuum as being the same which I think is a bit silly. Mild vacuum is little diferent than driving the car at higher elevations that the car was designed to operate at - so how destructive could it be.
So like I said at the start you are overblowing the concern based on that alone - that's about as aggressive as I have been on this issue. You seem to feel the need to escalate this to a direct personal attack - well I won't do that.
What do I do for a living? - I'm an engineer: so I value data and a technical rationale that I can believe in. But I've been around long enough to know things don't always work the way the theory seems to initially indicate - so I also value direct experience from those who have done it.
I value your expertise, and I'd value more details on your arguments - where they clash with what seems logical I'd like to try to understand why... thats where I'm at. I've been clear all along that I have results that I like - and a belief that mild vacuum is not damaging (based on the cars original design envelope). I've given that rationale why - and you can see that anyway I've stayed on the milder vacuum side out of caution.
I don't appreciate the personal attack - I think its very misplaced on your part.
You seem to think I should believe everything you say on face value - and you know in general on most things I would tend to.. however when I see a red flag of something that doesn't make sense to me and we seem to be heading off on a strange tangent - I start to question everything... thats just the way I am, and that's what I get paid for in my day job.
Alan
Not cool.
Like I said, go back and find one solitary thing I've been wrong about....one thing. Anything.
I don't have to guess at this crap....like I said....I've had enough apart and have put enough back together to know what is happening inside.
Here's you and Colin bashing away at me, because I say the wrist pins are not going to get enough oil.
You guys don't want to know the truth....you want everyone to reassure you that your system is great and will work perfectly.
Well, guess what....it isn't going to do that.
It goes from that to Colin wanting me to do all his research and development and provide him detailed pictures of stuff.
Why would I do that, even if I had taken the time to take a picture? How does schooling Colin benefit me?
Here it is, one more time....write it down......The wrist pins in the GTS application are not going to get enough oil, when vacuum is introduced. There will be wrist pin problems, in an already under-oiled spot in the GTS engines.
Hell, GK Motorsports says, in their own literature, that you need forced pin oiling after 15 inches of vacuum.....with a engine with oil return holes in the pistons.....which is where 90% of the pin oiling comes from. They don't have a clue what is going to happen to an engine that has no oil return holes.
Re-read what I said.....these people were one of the sources that I used when I did my own research into this. They are one of the sources that made me not ever even run this system on one of these engines. I've got a complete vacuum system sitting on a shelf....because they were dumbfounded at the complete lack of oil return holes in the pistons and what that was going to do to the pins!
Enough.
Quit attacking my credibility.
03-13-2014 | 06:58 PM
#107
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From: Anaheim
Think how pleasant and perfect this thread would be, if I hadn't said a solitary thing.
That's what they wanted....a pat on the back, for a job well done, by a blind and dumb person.
03-13-2014 | 07:35 PM
#108
Electron Wrangler
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Greg - I honestly don't know how you can construe any of my comments that way. I've been asking for more data/analysis on this and an understanding of appropriate balance - thats all.
Only one person is drop-kicking your credibilty in this thread.
Alan
Only one person is drop-kicking your credibilty in this thread.
Alan
03-13-2014 | 09:20 PM
#109
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From: Southern Alberta, Canada
'IF' the major contributor to heavy oil consumption on the GTS engines is primarily caused by using pistons with NO return oil holes then why did the Porsche engine designers choose to do so?
I do realise there's several aspects of the marque we question factory design but this topic is as critical as the TT/crank brg issue.
Or perhaps we should invoke the 'BOOBIE' pics......(as our dear departed friend said often
)
BTW....Im not a engine builder or hold a PHD just a humble telecom engineer trying to enjoy a fabulous car
I do realise there's several aspects of the marque we question factory design but this topic is as critical as the TT/crank brg issue.
Or perhaps we should invoke the 'BOOBIE' pics......(as our dear departed friend said often
)BTW....Im not a engine builder or hold a PHD just a humble telecom engineer trying to enjoy a fabulous car
03-13-2014 | 09:34 PM
#110
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Same reason why they designed the 996 engine with a sealed bearing that fails rather catastrophically.
Probably the same group of engineers responsible for the brand new GT3's that are bursting into flames.
I miss Greg 
Probably the same group of engineers responsible for the brand new GT3's that are bursting into flames.
03-13-2014 | 09:59 PM
#111
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From: Anaheim
Right there.
As far as my grasp of the English Language goes.....you called me a liar.
In my world, you do that to my face or within hearing distance and I guarantee you'd be picking your *** off the floor. Guarantee! All I can do, on the Internet, is get pissed.
03-13-2014 | 10:03 PM
#112
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You know we are so so lucky to have such wonderful and clever "key" members of this awesome 928 community. People like Greg, Alan & Colin and so many more, and you know who you are. We need to really try and understand each others ideas, ideals & goals and try try to see through the crap and get along.
If we were all in a group standing around a bar with a drink in our hands having the same discussion - we would all get along - because our body language would dictate how the discussion was going. We would "bow" to someone's opinion and compromise - or agree to disagree and move on.
The "typed" response leaves no room for "feel" in my opinion and often gets misconstrued in all sorts of different ways.
As I get older and in theory "more wiser" I see this more and more and learn to "chill" and understand that my way may not be the highway. Does not mean I am wrong just means that someone else has a different idea to mine.
We CANNOT lose the input from Greg because "he has been there and got the T shirt". Because what he has to say is paramount to the 928 community because of his vast experience. Does it mean he is right? Does it mean his logic/theory/practice should not be questioned - NO. However we need to think we are standing at the bar drink in hand and give some personal "slack" to the conversation and try and not respond in an adversarial way no matter well intentioned or not.
I for one want to continue hearing what all these "inspiring" 928 people have to say with out the politics (or we are not standing at a bar) so anything goes responses. THINK standing at a bar not sitting in front of a electronic "plastic, none feeling, sometimes disrespectful" screen.
Yes I have had a glass of wine but it breaks my heart to see such "outstanding" people fall out.
If we were all in a group standing around a bar with a drink in our hands having the same discussion - we would all get along - because our body language would dictate how the discussion was going. We would "bow" to someone's opinion and compromise - or agree to disagree and move on.
The "typed" response leaves no room for "feel" in my opinion and often gets misconstrued in all sorts of different ways.
As I get older and in theory "more wiser" I see this more and more and learn to "chill" and understand that my way may not be the highway. Does not mean I am wrong just means that someone else has a different idea to mine.
We CANNOT lose the input from Greg because "he has been there and got the T shirt". Because what he has to say is paramount to the 928 community because of his vast experience. Does it mean he is right? Does it mean his logic/theory/practice should not be questioned - NO. However we need to think we are standing at the bar drink in hand and give some personal "slack" to the conversation and try and not respond in an adversarial way no matter well intentioned or not.
I for one want to continue hearing what all these "inspiring" 928 people have to say with out the politics (or we are not standing at a bar) so anything goes responses. THINK standing at a bar not sitting in front of a electronic "plastic, none feeling, sometimes disrespectful" screen.
Yes I have had a glass of wine but it breaks my heart to see such "outstanding" people fall out.
__________________
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014
928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
03-13-2014 | 10:03 PM
#113
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This isn't conjecture or prediction - it is actual results over an extended period and a radical change for this car.
Doesn't say that the ring changes don't affect the intake losses too - maybe they do - but I don't really see how...
Noodling over the oiling topic as we have been wrt wrist pins etc doesn't change this. Thats just a question of collateral impacts to be considered too.
Alan
03-13-2014 | 10:08 PM
#114
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From: Southern Alberta, Canada
Im taking Rogers lead and heading to the bar...........cheers all
hi Alan.....my comments are in reference to early GTS engines being fitted with PISTONS with no return oil holes.
My S4 uses no oil and apparently later GTS models were fitted with return oil holes in their pistons and don't suffer same issue as the early models.
My GTS seems to a rare breed after I thrashed it to Wichita and back. Oil consumption fastly improved by the 6k km trip but the clutch hydraulics didn't like the +40c weather......another topic
hi Alan.....my comments are in reference to early GTS engines being fitted with PISTONS with no return oil holes.
My S4 uses no oil and apparently later GTS models were fitted with return oil holes in their pistons and don't suffer same issue as the early models.
My GTS seems to a rare breed after I thrashed it to Wichita and back. Oil consumption fastly improved by the 6k km trip but the clutch hydraulics didn't like the +40c weather......another topic
Last edited by the flyin' scotsman; 03-14-2014 at 12:02 AM.
03-13-2014 | 10:17 PM
#115
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Posts: 15,230
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From: Anaheim
You know we are so so lucky to have such wonderful and clever "key" members of this awesome 928 community. People like Greg, Alan & Colin and so many more, and you know who you are. We need to really try and understand each others ideas, ideals & goals and try try to see through the crap and get along.
If we were all in a group standing around a bar with a drink in our hands having the same discussion - we would all get along - because our body language would dictate how the discussion was going. We would "bow" to someone's opinion and compromise - or agree to disagree and move on.
The "typed" response leaves no room for "feel" in my opinion and often gets misconstrued in all sorts of different ways.
As I get older and in theory "more wiser" I see this more and more and learn to "chill" and understand that my way may not be the highway. Does not mean I am wrong just means that someone else has a different idea to mine.
We CANNOT lose the input from Greg because "he has been there and got the T shirt". Because what he has to say is paramount to the 928 community because of his vast experience. Does it mean he is right? Does it mean his logic/theory/practice should not be questioned - NO. However we need to think we are standing at the bar drink in hand and give some personal "slack" to the conversation and try and not respond in an adversarial way no matter well intentioned or not.
I for one want to continue hearing what all these "inspiring" 928 people have to say with out the politics (or we are not standing at a bar) so anything goes responses. THINK standing at a bar not sitting in front of a electronic "plastic, none feeling, sometimes disrespectful" screen.
Yes I have had a glass of wine but it breaks my heart to see such "outstanding" people fall out.
If we were all in a group standing around a bar with a drink in our hands having the same discussion - we would all get along - because our body language would dictate how the discussion was going. We would "bow" to someone's opinion and compromise - or agree to disagree and move on.
The "typed" response leaves no room for "feel" in my opinion and often gets misconstrued in all sorts of different ways.
As I get older and in theory "more wiser" I see this more and more and learn to "chill" and understand that my way may not be the highway. Does not mean I am wrong just means that someone else has a different idea to mine.
We CANNOT lose the input from Greg because "he has been there and got the T shirt". Because what he has to say is paramount to the 928 community because of his vast experience. Does it mean he is right? Does it mean his logic/theory/practice should not be questioned - NO. However we need to think we are standing at the bar drink in hand and give some personal "slack" to the conversation and try and not respond in an adversarial way no matter well intentioned or not.
I for one want to continue hearing what all these "inspiring" 928 people have to say with out the politics (or we are not standing at a bar) so anything goes responses. THINK standing at a bar not sitting in front of a electronic "plastic, none feeling, sometimes disrespectful" screen.
Yes I have had a glass of wine but it breaks my heart to see such "outstanding" people fall out.
I don't give a **** who you are....we are sitting in a bar and you call me a liar....I'm not going to be very stinking happy.....no matter how much you try to sugar coat it.
03-13-2014 | 10:28 PM
#116
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If we were all in a group standing around a bar with a drink in our hands having the same discussion - we would all get along - because our body language would dictate how the discussion was going. We would "bow" to someone's opinion and compromise - or agree to disagree and move on.
03-13-2014 | 10:43 PM
#117
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But if I buy the drinks - does that help in any way??
I just think that at the bar no one (misconstrued in any way) would have "intimated" you were a liar.
We all know you are not a liar - just have a very strong opinion about the subject based on your opinion and many years of experience. Some do not see it the same way and have a different opinion. We are where we are.
What would you like to drink?
I just think that at the bar no one (misconstrued in any way) would have "intimated" you were a liar.
We all know you are not a liar - just have a very strong opinion about the subject based on your opinion and many years of experience. Some do not see it the same way and have a different opinion. We are where we are.
What would you like to drink?
03-13-2014 | 11:34 PM
#119
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From: Anaheim
But if I buy the drinks - does that help in any way??
I just think that at the bar no one (misconstrued in any way) would have "intimated" you were a liar.
We all know you are not a liar - just have a very strong opinion about the subject based on your opinion and many years of experience. Some do not see it the same way and have a different opinion. We are where we are.
What would you like to drink?
I just think that at the bar no one (misconstrued in any way) would have "intimated" you were a liar.
We all know you are not a liar - just have a very strong opinion about the subject based on your opinion and many years of experience. Some do not see it the same way and have a different opinion. We are where we are.
What would you like to drink?
Other than that, I see an unavoidable *** kicking.
And one of the really great things about my friend Greg Nettles, who got mentioned in this thread, a couple of posts ago....you would always be certain that he would be helping.
Don't think Greg knew the words "back down".
God Bless him!
03-13-2014 | 11:38 PM
#120
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From: Southern Alberta, Canada
well I went to the bar had a few, fired up the GTS for the first time in 4 1/2 months then came back to the laptop and admired Rob's *****
I'll have a Drambuie please and I'll buy the round in Kananaskis this July......cheers.
I'll have a Drambuie please and I'll buy the round in Kananaskis this July......cheers.