I bought my first Porsche 928 - Nightmare!
02-20-2014, 05:11 PM
#16
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Very sorry to hear about this trouble. IIRC there is no oil cooler in the radiator on the 83 model with auto trans. So - basically you are mixing oil and water somewhere in the engine. Where it came out is a different question.
As a fairly quick check, have all spark plugs removed and look for one that is clearly different than the others in color or condition. This will likely be near where the failure point is located.
I would surely contact the seller and the shop that did the engine rebuild. I'm hoping you have the documentation for the rebuild with the car. This is something that usually will wind up in what we call 'small claims' here in the colonies. I'm guessing you have a similar method for resolving small value cases in Ire and in the rest of the UK. Since the cost of the engine rebuild is significant, and the seller sold the vehicle described as:
ENGINE
All the nuts bolts, washers, clips and ancillaries have been stripped from the engine together with front and rear suspension - these have been chemically cleaned and re-plated back to production line new; yellow passivated.
All the engine castings, con-rods, pistons, valves etc have been thoroughly cleaned, checked and prepared before reassembly. All new bearings, piston rings and a full gasket set (valve stem seals, all oil seals, O rings etc. replaced).
This is virtually a new engine, as a result the emissions are very low (as can be seen from the report on first page of the photobucket link, below).
*********************************************************
he's using the rebuilt engine as a positive valuation on the condition at sale. Over here, the judge would take a dim view of an engine which failed shortly after rebuild and sale. Good luck.
As a fairly quick check, have all spark plugs removed and look for one that is clearly different than the others in color or condition. This will likely be near where the failure point is located.
I would surely contact the seller and the shop that did the engine rebuild. I'm hoping you have the documentation for the rebuild with the car. This is something that usually will wind up in what we call 'small claims' here in the colonies. I'm guessing you have a similar method for resolving small value cases in Ire and in the rest of the UK. Since the cost of the engine rebuild is significant, and the seller sold the vehicle described as:
ENGINE
All the nuts bolts, washers, clips and ancillaries have been stripped from the engine together with front and rear suspension - these have been chemically cleaned and re-plated back to production line new; yellow passivated.
All the engine castings, con-rods, pistons, valves etc have been thoroughly cleaned, checked and prepared before reassembly. All new bearings, piston rings and a full gasket set (valve stem seals, all oil seals, O rings etc. replaced).
This is virtually a new engine, as a result the emissions are very low (as can be seen from the report on first page of the photobucket link, below).
*********************************************************
he's using the rebuilt engine as a positive valuation on the condition at sale. Over here, the judge would take a dim view of an engine which failed shortly after rebuild and sale. Good luck.
02-20-2014, 05:18 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Ouch, unfortunate start to 928 ownership.
From your description, it sounds like there were numerous issues, pointing to a "rebuild" done by someone with no idea what they were up to. If they were a mechanic, then any warranty for the work done will transfer to you with ownership, and their insurance will cover it. If the seller did the work and wasn't a mechanic, then the only likely way to get your money back out will be to part the car out. The car is repairable - but it will take a fair bit of money and a lot of labour to do so.. do you work on your own cars and have tools?
Sorry this happened to you - first 928 purchase is an exciting thing, and the pangs of dread watching it spew oil must've been painful.
I know it doesn't help your situation now, but there are some warning signs in the advert that the car may not have been as represented - I'd be wary of adverts which talk about stuff like "future show car" and then in the next breath say that it needs a full repaint.
edit: Post about this on the 928uk list - you might get more local help and UK-relevant opinions as to the legal options:
http://lists.928.org.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/928uk
From your description, it sounds like there were numerous issues, pointing to a "rebuild" done by someone with no idea what they were up to. If they were a mechanic, then any warranty for the work done will transfer to you with ownership, and their insurance will cover it. If the seller did the work and wasn't a mechanic, then the only likely way to get your money back out will be to part the car out. The car is repairable - but it will take a fair bit of money and a lot of labour to do so.. do you work on your own cars and have tools?
Sorry this happened to you - first 928 purchase is an exciting thing, and the pangs of dread watching it spew oil must've been painful.
I know it doesn't help your situation now, but there are some warning signs in the advert that the car may not have been as represented - I'd be wary of adverts which talk about stuff like "future show car" and then in the next breath say that it needs a full repaint.
edit: Post about this on the 928uk list - you might get more local help and UK-relevant opinions as to the legal options:
http://lists.928.org.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/928uk
02-20-2014, 05:39 PM
#19
Nordschleife Master
Find out where you stand legally and what the position is of the previous owner.
If you end up keeping it, someone expert in the 928 needs to check all the previous work on the car.
If you end up keeping it, someone expert in the 928 needs to check all the previous work on the car.
02-20-2014, 05:50 PM
#20
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Let's hope it's something in the cooling area, and not the engine.
02-20-2014, 07:43 PM
#21
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Sorry to hear this op.
from ad: "Aa few broken hoses have presented themselves and this work is in the order of £160 to rectify - lattest quotation price."
What hoses and were they replaced?
I think the radiator is a likely candidate if as James stated it is the one with the built in oil cooler.
Are you in the Cork city area?
Cheers,
MJ
from ad: "Aa few broken hoses have presented themselves and this work is in the order of £160 to rectify - lattest quotation price."
What hoses and were they replaced?
I think the radiator is a likely candidate if as James stated it is the one with the built in oil cooler.
Are you in the Cork city area?
Cheers,
MJ
02-20-2014, 07:50 PM
#22
Drifting
[QUOTE=docmirror;11151413]Thank you. Although there is no warranty on the used car, there may be one on the engine. Failing that, there is the implied warranty of fitness for use, which is a US construct but you get the idea.
I agree doc,
it may be considered auto fraud in Ireland as it could be here.
The Seller could have intentionally misled you as to the condition of the car.
Either way he really 'built up' the rebuild while advertising.
I'm sorry this happened to you BehindtheWall.
-Matt
I agree doc,
it may be considered auto fraud in Ireland as it could be here.
The Seller could have intentionally misled you as to the condition of the car.
Either way he really 'built up' the rebuild while advertising.
I'm sorry this happened to you BehindtheWall.
-Matt
02-20-2014, 08:08 PM
#23
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[QUOTE=The Fixer;11151759]
In Ireland as far as I know when you buy a used car from an individual it is a case of "caveat emptor" or "Let the buyer beware". So generally there is no come back. If the seller knew there was something wrong serious wrong with the car and did not disclose it, especially safety related then they may be accountable but proving that they knew this would be very difficult of course.
The sale did however take place in the UK so I would think that the op would have to take up the issue there. The UK has a very similar legal system. (ours is based off of theirs).
I don't know about in the US but over here it is common practice for the buyer to sign a piece of paper saying "This vehicle is sold as seen" meaning you are buying what you see before you, and its your job to inspect it and be satisfied with it's condition.
Thank you. Although there is no warranty on the used car, there may be one on the engine. Failing that, there is the implied warranty of fitness for use, which is a US construct but you get the idea.
I agree doc,
it may be considered auto fraud in Ireland as it could be here.
The Seller could have intentionally misled you as to the condition of the car.
Either way he really 'built up' the rebuild while advertising.
I'm sorry this happened to you BehindtheWall.
-Matt
I agree doc,
it may be considered auto fraud in Ireland as it could be here.
The Seller could have intentionally misled you as to the condition of the car.
Either way he really 'built up' the rebuild while advertising.
I'm sorry this happened to you BehindtheWall.
-Matt
The sale did however take place in the UK so I would think that the op would have to take up the issue there. The UK has a very similar legal system. (ours is based off of theirs).
I don't know about in the US but over here it is common practice for the buyer to sign a piece of paper saying "This vehicle is sold as seen" meaning you are buying what you see before you, and its your job to inspect it and be satisfied with it's condition.
02-20-2014, 08:15 PM
#24
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All private party sales in California are AS IS unless there is a written warrantee. Also implied warranties apply only to merchants not private sales. Most older used cars sold off dealers lots are also AS IS with big disclosure stickers in the windows and on the sales contract. Very hard to get out of a deal unless you can prove fraud...
02-20-2014, 08:19 PM
#25
Drifting
[QUOTE=MJ Ireland;11151812]That's called "as is" here, and different states have different standards. In California there really is no "as is" unless you fully state what it is. If you state it as a piece of junk, then you're OK if it breaks down. If you represent it as something usable, or don't say anything, you might have some problems if it breaks down soon.
02-20-2014, 09:30 PM
#26
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I would not touch a bolt on the car until you've spoken to the seller and the rebuilder first to see if they are going to do anything about it. You don't want to complicate issues by starting to do any investigatory/repair work. If the seller / rebuilder won't provide any help, and you decide that you want to sue them, you need to have a qualified mechanic take the motor apart and assess the damage.
You should only start the repairs on your own if you are not looking to hold anyone else liable for the repairs.
You should only start the repairs on your own if you are not looking to hold anyone else liable for the repairs.
02-20-2014, 09:48 PM
#27
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I drag raced for many years and blew up a lot of motors along the way. He did say he had a vibration... I would be the vibration was a broken rod swinging around. The oil and water mix is a result of the rod breaking into a water jacket and the oil on the ground is where something finally put a hole through the pan or block...
Last edited by andyww; 02-20-2014 at 09:49 PM. Reason: spelling
02-20-2014, 10:32 PM
#28
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I drag raced for many years and blew up a lot of motors along the way. He did say he had a vibration... I would be the vibration was a broken rod swinging around. The oil and water mix is a result of the rod breaking into a water jacket and the oil on the ground is where something finally put a hole through the pan or block...
OP .. sorry to hear about your misfortune. I know exactly how you feel, as I had the motor in my 82 break a ring within a few weeks of getting it ... it's a horrible feeling.
Get someone with 928 experience to take a look at the car, and go from there after you've got good advice. As Hilton suggested, you should find someone who can help in your part of the world on the UK list.
Keep us posted and good luck.
02-20-2014, 11:26 PM
#29
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Very good possibility that the engine oil cooler sprang a leak.....when running the 40-100 psi oil pressure pushed some oil into the cooling system 15-16 lbs pressure. Then when shut off the oil pressure went to zero while the cooling system still retained pressure since it was hot. So water coolant got into the oil until the engine cooled down. Coming off the ferry cold engine 100 psi pressure it then started pumping oil/coolant back into the cooling system possibly several quarts. The engine is now low on oil and contaminated with water /coolant and the rod bearings are not happy. The excessive pressure in the cooling system and additional oil causes the "radiator" pressure lock cap to vent the milk shake of oil/water /coolant.....Add in the joy and excitement of having your Porsche home and there may have been a spirited run or two....
The loss of power and vibration is probably the bearings seizing ...will have damaged the crankshaft and rods. I know it is ugly but..... may well have been a simple failure of a 30 year old radiator internal oil cooler....
The prior owner had no way to know that the radiator/heat exchanger would fail....and should have no liability.
All of this is just a guestimate from thousands of miles away. Very sorry to hear of your misfortune....
The loss of power and vibration is probably the bearings seizing ...will have damaged the crankshaft and rods. I know it is ugly but..... may well have been a simple failure of a 30 year old radiator internal oil cooler....
The prior owner had no way to know that the radiator/heat exchanger would fail....and should have no liability.
All of this is just a guestimate from thousands of miles away. Very sorry to hear of your misfortune....
02-21-2014, 01:03 AM
#30
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Just for my .928p's worth...in the UK probably caveat emptor, get on to ebay but dont hold your breath! If it was under £5000.00 you can start 'Small claims' procedure but it would be heared in a court near where the transaction took place. In my experience you will have to attend that court at least 4 times during the process. It is possible to transfer in the UK but difficult if the Defendant objects. Could turn out expensive.
Obviously try the seller first verbally and then confirm by mail.
Obviously try the seller first verbally and then confirm by mail.