Bikini Spoiler--HOW TO
10-02-2013, 08:52 PM
#61
Drifting
Then I just Googled "Porsche 911 ducktail spoiler" and guess what? The images shown are almost exactly what I think I have created with the Bikini Spoiler in this thread, except, as you point out, since the 928 rear is a little higher than the 911, mine (and yours) are not quite so tall.
I cannot see how you can envision your spoiler as akin to those 911 ducktail spoilers. In fact the ones shown even incorporate something very similar to the two foreward extensions that mine has, which are to both cover up and to utilize the S4 wing mounting points, in the 928 case. I'm not sure why the 911 spoilers have them but they all seem to have something much like them.
None of the 911 spoilers are standing up so goal post straight as yours seems to and they all have such a nice curvature on the top/foreward surface, as mine does, to help make the ducktail-like shape.
Too, none of them have the ridges and such that you suggest are required to be called ducktail. They are all just as smooth and flowing as I am trying to make mine.
I cannot see how you can envision your spoiler as akin to those 911 ducktail spoilers. In fact the ones shown even incorporate something very similar to the two foreward extensions that mine has, which are to both cover up and to utilize the S4 wing mounting points, in the 928 case. I'm not sure why the 911 spoilers have them but they all seem to have something much like them.
None of the 911 spoilers are standing up so goal post straight as yours seems to and they all have such a nice curvature on the top/foreward surface, as mine does, to help make the ducktail-like shape.
Too, none of them have the ridges and such that you suggest are required to be called ducktail. They are all just as smooth and flowing as I am trying to make mine.
I used for my 928 Ducktail Spoiler is spot on to the Porsche 911 Ducktail.
The angle of the back of my Ducktail Spoiler could not be the same as the 911 Ducktail (nor did I want it to be, this is a 928)
Jerry there just is not the room from front to back on the hatch frame to copy the 911 ducktail exactly, and why would I?
It is a different model.
Watch the RUF video again. If that doesn't help you're on your own.
10-02-2013, 10:20 PM
#63
Drifting
Jerry I figured out the confusion i think on your part.
the angle you see from the side on a 911RS is not the major angle of the spoiler, as it wraps around the visible angle changes a lot.
If you look down into the 911 RS spoiler the angle is very severe, almost a right angle to the rear end. It has to be due to the location of the engine cooling fan intake.
You need to look at one as IMO000 says. I copied the angle exactly from photos that are somewhere in the shop. I used several. I could not achieve the same angle for the
back and sides of the spoiler for dimensional reasons.
What my goal was: Try to capture the essence of the Ducktail shape but make it
uniquely for the 928.
I did find a pic that may help you understand.
Because i used pins to secure my hatch, I could not wrap the spoiler up as much as you would like to resemble the 911 Ducktail more.
Also because the back of my spoiler is at a different angle than the 911 ducktail, it makes mine look all the more severe and angle.
The 911 ducktail is just as severe but is obscured by the sides of it.
You understand now?
the angle you see from the side on a 911RS is not the major angle of the spoiler, as it wraps around the visible angle changes a lot.
If you look down into the 911 RS spoiler the angle is very severe, almost a right angle to the rear end. It has to be due to the location of the engine cooling fan intake.
You need to look at one as IMO000 says. I copied the angle exactly from photos that are somewhere in the shop. I used several. I could not achieve the same angle for the
back and sides of the spoiler for dimensional reasons.
What my goal was: Try to capture the essence of the Ducktail shape but make it
uniquely for the 928.
I did find a pic that may help you understand.
Because i used pins to secure my hatch, I could not wrap the spoiler up as much as you would like to resemble the 911 Ducktail more.
Also because the back of my spoiler is at a different angle than the 911 ducktail, it makes mine look all the more severe and angle.
The 911 ducktail is just as severe but is obscured by the sides of it.
You understand now?
10-03-2013, 12:31 AM
#64
Rennlist Member
Imo, your's would not be considered a Porsche 'Ducktail' spoiler.
Your spoiler is something different. Porsche ducktails are characterized by the extreme angle, and are dished out. They have a curved large radius finish at the top. Mine IS a ducktail spoiler but a little shorter because the rear end of a 928 is not as low as a 911.
A ducktail spoiler must look like what is found on a Porsche Carrera RS or RSR from the '70s. If you go and refine it, it is no longer a ducktail.
"A ducktail spoiler divided, can not stand"
Your spoiler is something different. Porsche ducktails are characterized by the extreme angle, and are dished out. They have a curved large radius finish at the top. Mine IS a ducktail spoiler but a little shorter because the rear end of a 928 is not as low as a 911.
A ducktail spoiler must look like what is found on a Porsche Carrera RS or RSR from the '70s. If you go and refine it, it is no longer a ducktail.
"A ducktail spoiler divided, can not stand"
10-03-2013, 01:38 AM
#65
Drifting
I'd like t try an help you again Jerry, I trust you won't mind as I did not mind reading your thoughts on my design and its misses.
You have built the spoiler from edge to edge on the hatch frame. This makes your spoiler too w i d e in proportion the the width of the car to have the 911 ducktail look.
The 911 ducktail has a narrow and vertical character. This is key.
Also Jerry, your spoiler hangs out back way too far, it needs to be more forward of the rear edge of the 928 bumper cover
and again be more vertical to capture the look and character correctly.
The Ducktail spoiler on a 911 doesn't look real wide from the back in proportion the the rear quarters, it looks kind of short and tall because of the
size or width of the 911 engine lid and narrow greenhouse.
The 928 hatch frame and roof line is lower and wider, you have to factor that in, compensate, or it won't capture the character at all.
1. I found old excellence mag pics of RS and RSRs that show the severe angle and the ridge or lip at the top edge of the dished out ducktail as seen below.
2. The second pic of the rear shows how keeping the spoiler a little short from side to side gives it that taller appearance.
3. The third pic shows how keeping the spoiler as forward as i could, gave it that old Porsche look. The car looks sportier and smaller. The 911 ducktail is very forward, i kept mine as forward and tall as possible.
It's like capturing a persons face quickly in a caricature, it's not at all exact in proportion or size but somehow looks like the person.
You have built the spoiler from edge to edge on the hatch frame. This makes your spoiler too w i d e in proportion the the width of the car to have the 911 ducktail look.
The 911 ducktail has a narrow and vertical character. This is key.
Also Jerry, your spoiler hangs out back way too far, it needs to be more forward of the rear edge of the 928 bumper cover
and again be more vertical to capture the look and character correctly.
The Ducktail spoiler on a 911 doesn't look real wide from the back in proportion the the rear quarters, it looks kind of short and tall because of the
size or width of the 911 engine lid and narrow greenhouse.
The 928 hatch frame and roof line is lower and wider, you have to factor that in, compensate, or it won't capture the character at all.
1. I found old excellence mag pics of RS and RSRs that show the severe angle and the ridge or lip at the top edge of the dished out ducktail as seen below.
2. The second pic of the rear shows how keeping the spoiler a little short from side to side gives it that taller appearance.
3. The third pic shows how keeping the spoiler as forward as i could, gave it that old Porsche look. The car looks sportier and smaller. The 911 ducktail is very forward, i kept mine as forward and tall as possible.
It's like capturing a persons face quickly in a caricature, it's not at all exact in proportion or size but somehow looks like the person.
Last edited by The Fixer; 10-03-2013 at 02:52 AM.
10-03-2013, 10:30 AM
#66
Rennlist Member
I admire your craftsmanship.
I think that YOUR execution of YOUR design and YOUR vision is excellent in every way.
It is unfortunate to watch from the outside this vision of yours being compared to another persons vision of their own design and their own creative process.
I love to watch how we all make these fantastic cars our very own. To some that may mean incredible engine mods, to others, it may mean a unique paint job... killer wheels...... wide body kits..... and on and on.
I think our little pond is big enough to have two (or more) really smart fish with really cool ideas have fun with their cars and share ideas with others....., without thinking one idea is superior to the other.
I think that YOUR execution of YOUR design and YOUR vision is excellent in every way.
It is unfortunate to watch from the outside this vision of yours being compared to another persons vision of their own design and their own creative process.
I love to watch how we all make these fantastic cars our very own. To some that may mean incredible engine mods, to others, it may mean a unique paint job... killer wheels...... wide body kits..... and on and on.
I think our little pond is big enough to have two (or more) really smart fish with really cool ideas have fun with their cars and share ideas with others....., without thinking one idea is superior to the other.
10-03-2013, 03:59 PM
#67
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Brian, Thank you for your astute observations about this process we call the 928 forum.
Matt, Thank you also for your attempts to "help me." However, I now finally see that you are trying to help me do something that is the farthest thing from my mind, and that is trying to replicate a 928 into a 911 GS, as you are working on. I only took your spoiler into account in my design process because it seems that every time this subject comes up, as in your thread, I think, the question comes up about "what has Jerry Feather come up with?" Therefore, your design was some what of a starting point for me, but, again, not in the hope of matching the "character and appearance" of the GS spoiler.
It didn't take me long to move away from the "ducktail" style you have found so appealing in the GS spoiler, and I have moved beyond that, much as it appears that Porsche has done for the last two decades or more.
Matt, Thank you also for your attempts to "help me." However, I now finally see that you are trying to help me do something that is the farthest thing from my mind, and that is trying to replicate a 928 into a 911 GS, as you are working on. I only took your spoiler into account in my design process because it seems that every time this subject comes up, as in your thread, I think, the question comes up about "what has Jerry Feather come up with?" Therefore, your design was some what of a starting point for me, but, again, not in the hope of matching the "character and appearance" of the GS spoiler.
It didn't take me long to move away from the "ducktail" style you have found so appealing in the GS spoiler, and I have moved beyond that, much as it appears that Porsche has done for the last two decades or more.
10-03-2013, 07:18 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I think what I have in mind is something more like what the duck's tail might be doing in flight, rather than up like that on the water.
But I digress. I am past considering why or how my spoiler needs to be anything like a duck's tail, or a GS spoiler.
Forging ahead with my design I have put a gob of epoxy on the base of my spoiler buck or plug for a female mold, and have it curing while clamped to the Hatch I am using to mock up the item. When it cures I'll take it off and try to work the base surface out so that it will fit the hatch snugley around the perimeter where the final molded piece(s) will be cast.
I found that my buck or plug is kind of flexible and takes a little bit of clamping force to get it to lay on the hatch. Given that and since I have been having a fit in trying to devise in my mind how the three piece mold is going to be made, it now occurs to me that I'll be making the back of the mold with it being layed up on the plug and the hatch while the plug is clamped to the hatch like I have it now. That way the mold will be true to the hatch and not to the plug which is a little springy.
After I make the back of the mold, with the base layed up right on the hatch, with wax paper for release, then I can clamp it and the plug to the hatch and lay up the front mold in the same manner. When they are both done I'll be able then to lay up the base mold on the two formed hatch surfaces on the first two molds and the finished surface on the base of the plug. I'll be making the two first mold components pretty sturdy so they will more likely retain the hatch shape and overcome with the springiness of the plug. At least that is what I hope for.
Whew! I'm sure glad that finally came into focus.
I am also working on a program to tuft test this plug before I start the molds. If I find that it doesn't work I'll try to figure that out and maybe do something about it.
But I digress. I am past considering why or how my spoiler needs to be anything like a duck's tail, or a GS spoiler.
Forging ahead with my design I have put a gob of epoxy on the base of my spoiler buck or plug for a female mold, and have it curing while clamped to the Hatch I am using to mock up the item. When it cures I'll take it off and try to work the base surface out so that it will fit the hatch snugley around the perimeter where the final molded piece(s) will be cast.
I found that my buck or plug is kind of flexible and takes a little bit of clamping force to get it to lay on the hatch. Given that and since I have been having a fit in trying to devise in my mind how the three piece mold is going to be made, it now occurs to me that I'll be making the back of the mold with it being layed up on the plug and the hatch while the plug is clamped to the hatch like I have it now. That way the mold will be true to the hatch and not to the plug which is a little springy.
After I make the back of the mold, with the base layed up right on the hatch, with wax paper for release, then I can clamp it and the plug to the hatch and lay up the front mold in the same manner. When they are both done I'll be able then to lay up the base mold on the two formed hatch surfaces on the first two molds and the finished surface on the base of the plug. I'll be making the two first mold components pretty sturdy so they will more likely retain the hatch shape and overcome with the springiness of the plug. At least that is what I hope for.
Whew! I'm sure glad that finally came into focus.
I am also working on a program to tuft test this plug before I start the molds. If I find that it doesn't work I'll try to figure that out and maybe do something about it.
10-03-2013, 08:05 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
10-03-2013, 08:42 PM
#73
Drifting
Ed who owns Blue Max mentioned wanting a DT spoiler (can't type that word anymore) so let's us DT hereafter;
anyway, I have been thinking that it would be nice to make one (DT spoiler) that was not fixed to the hatch permanently but used piping between the DT spoiler and hatch (same piping as our rear and front bumper covers use)
You'd have to notch the mating edge of the spoiler to seat the piping same as the bumper cover molds do, then the spoiler could be painted to match and applied with multiple quarter size dabs of contact cement to both the DT spoiler bottom and hatch. This way Blue Max would not be permanently altered. The piping would create a seam to further help the new and old paint match.
The person who advised using the surfboard foam is spot on, that would be ideal.. It would have to seat perfectly to the hatch and I have an idea how to achieve this as well.
To remove it would require a heat gun on the reverse side of the hatch frame after removing the trim of course. I think the frame would heat up nicely and the cement would soften. Not sure if there is a double sided tape that could be reliable enough, maybe there is.
This DT spoiler could be made to look just like the 911 DT spoiler if kept short so the rear angle could slope the same.
It also could incorporate the wiper or not.
Over and out on the DT spoiler, spoilered out!
10-04-2013, 03:02 AM
#74
Rennlist Member
10-04-2013, 09:26 AM
#75
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
That's not a bad idea! Sort of like the ones they put on the back lower edge of some speed boats. I don't have a picture, but I think you know what I mean. I think the purpose of those is doing much the same with the water as we are trying to do with the air, but in the opposite direction.