928 engines......a close look at some well known ones
06-10-2013, 07:56 PM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
928 engines......a close look at some well known ones
I based my calculations off of 5 speed 928's with 15% loss for drivetrain.
Lets start with the smallest engine of the bunch, my 1981 4.5L L jet motor (9-1 CR) with early Euro S cams, and custom ported heads. MSDS headers into Y pipe 3.5" exhaust. 311 crank HP 335ftlbs. This equates to 69 HP per liter and 74 ftlbs per liter. My BMEP at peak torque is 184.37psi and BMEP at peak power is 159psi.
Next up is a 4.7L Euro S LH engine with full race exhaust (same as mine) but running a full L jet intake-injection. 10.4 CR. It made 327hp-350ftlbs. Nearly identical to mine as 69.6 HP/L and 74.5 ftlb/L. Its peak torque BMEP is 183.9psi and peak power of 159.7psi...
Moving on to 32V 928's
Mark Kiborts stroker, 6.4L with full race exhaust same as ours. A full 437hp and 480ftlbs!!! 68.3 HP/L and 75ftlbs/L Almost the same as both 16V engines....since the 32V head flows quite a bit better than the euro S, the intake must be the big restriction. BMEP at peak torque is 185.6psi and BMEP at peak power is 161.24 psi....very similar to the 16V euro engines.....
All three of these engines are quite mild, with stock or near stock cams and no high end parts. SO lets take a look at some more custom 928 engines!
Dennis "screamer" 5.0L Still very stock, just with custom ground cams. 441hp and 425 ftlbs.....VERY impressive results for still using stock valve sizes and stock intake! 88.2HP/L and 85ftlbs/L. BMEP at torque peak is 212psi and BMEP at peak HP is 192.75psi.....very impressive results when you consider a modern NASCAR engine is 226psi at torque peak and 211psi and HP peak....
Louie Ott's 6.4L stroker with custom ITB intakes, around 11-1 CR. I believe he has Devek custom cams as well. 685HP and 607ftlbs....WOW..... 106.9HP/L more impressive 94.8 ftlbs/L BMEP at torque peak is an amazingly high 234psi!!!! BMEP at HP peak is still high at 218.9psi... Louie's peak torque BMEP is near world class "engine master build challenge" for pushrod style engines. The winner of that competition tends to have peak torque BMEP of around 245psi!!!!! Or just 28ftlbs more than Louies engine.
Lastly we have Mike Simards 7.0L monster....full custom, super light parts to allow for 7500+ rpm, larger ITB intake than Louie (I think louie is 52mm Simard is 54mm). 752HP and 590ftlbs. The ability to turn more RPM helps make 107.4HP/L and 84.3 ftlbs/L. BMEP at peak torque is 208psi and only 188psi at Peak HP. The larger ITB's seem to drop off a bit of torque, but his engine is slightly lower CR at 10.5-1.
Clearly the 32V intake is a restriction......imagine what Dennis engine could do with an ITB....a properly sized ITB on a 5.0L could make 530hp and 474ftlbs if it performed similar to Louies......however Louis spins his up to 6350rpm at peak power....with peak torque around 5100rpm.... Simard makes peak power past 7000...maybe 7200!!!
So what does all of this mean...I dunno, its slow at work and calculating all this ate up some time!!!!
Lets start with the smallest engine of the bunch, my 1981 4.5L L jet motor (9-1 CR) with early Euro S cams, and custom ported heads. MSDS headers into Y pipe 3.5" exhaust. 311 crank HP 335ftlbs. This equates to 69 HP per liter and 74 ftlbs per liter. My BMEP at peak torque is 184.37psi and BMEP at peak power is 159psi.
Next up is a 4.7L Euro S LH engine with full race exhaust (same as mine) but running a full L jet intake-injection. 10.4 CR. It made 327hp-350ftlbs. Nearly identical to mine as 69.6 HP/L and 74.5 ftlb/L. Its peak torque BMEP is 183.9psi and peak power of 159.7psi...
Moving on to 32V 928's
Mark Kiborts stroker, 6.4L with full race exhaust same as ours. A full 437hp and 480ftlbs!!! 68.3 HP/L and 75ftlbs/L Almost the same as both 16V engines....since the 32V head flows quite a bit better than the euro S, the intake must be the big restriction. BMEP at peak torque is 185.6psi and BMEP at peak power is 161.24 psi....very similar to the 16V euro engines.....
All three of these engines are quite mild, with stock or near stock cams and no high end parts. SO lets take a look at some more custom 928 engines!
Dennis "screamer" 5.0L Still very stock, just with custom ground cams. 441hp and 425 ftlbs.....VERY impressive results for still using stock valve sizes and stock intake! 88.2HP/L and 85ftlbs/L. BMEP at torque peak is 212psi and BMEP at peak HP is 192.75psi.....very impressive results when you consider a modern NASCAR engine is 226psi at torque peak and 211psi and HP peak....
Louie Ott's 6.4L stroker with custom ITB intakes, around 11-1 CR. I believe he has Devek custom cams as well. 685HP and 607ftlbs....WOW..... 106.9HP/L more impressive 94.8 ftlbs/L BMEP at torque peak is an amazingly high 234psi!!!! BMEP at HP peak is still high at 218.9psi... Louie's peak torque BMEP is near world class "engine master build challenge" for pushrod style engines. The winner of that competition tends to have peak torque BMEP of around 245psi!!!!! Or just 28ftlbs more than Louies engine.
Lastly we have Mike Simards 7.0L monster....full custom, super light parts to allow for 7500+ rpm, larger ITB intake than Louie (I think louie is 52mm Simard is 54mm). 752HP and 590ftlbs. The ability to turn more RPM helps make 107.4HP/L and 84.3 ftlbs/L. BMEP at peak torque is 208psi and only 188psi at Peak HP. The larger ITB's seem to drop off a bit of torque, but his engine is slightly lower CR at 10.5-1.
Clearly the 32V intake is a restriction......imagine what Dennis engine could do with an ITB....a properly sized ITB on a 5.0L could make 530hp and 474ftlbs if it performed similar to Louies......however Louis spins his up to 6350rpm at peak power....with peak torque around 5100rpm.... Simard makes peak power past 7000...maybe 7200!!!
So what does all of this mean...I dunno, its slow at work and calculating all this ate up some time!!!!
06-10-2013, 08:08 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Can you tell me what the 4.7 lh running the l jet injection means? I assume they put on the l jet fuel lines and injectors(smaller than the euro,if I am correct) Is that still running the lh brain or using the l brain. What are the advantages or was this an l-jet car with a lh euro swapped in? Thanks.
06-10-2013, 09:07 PM
#4
Race Director
Thread Starter
Can you tell me what the 4.7 lh running the l jet injection means? I assume they put on the l jet fuel lines and injectors(smaller than the euro,if I am correct) Is that still running the lh brain or using the l brain. What are the advantages or was this an l-jet car with a lh euro swapped in? Thanks.
The L jet intake is slightly smaller ID vs the euro but the biggest difference is the restriction of the barn door style AFM (air fuel meter) vs the MAF in the LH Euro S. I think that engine with a true EuroS LH intake-MAF would make more power, but probably less torque....
The fuel injectors are all the same, 24lb Used in all 928's until the 19lbs put in the S4+ engines.
06-10-2013, 11:46 PM
#5
Former Sponsor
I based my calculations off of 5 speed 928's with 15% loss for drivetrain.
Lets start with the smallest engine of the bunch, my 1981 4.5L L jet motor (9-1 CR) with early Euro S cams, and custom ported heads. MSDS headers into Y pipe 3.5" exhaust. 311 crank HP 335ftlbs. This equates to 69 HP per liter and 74 ftlbs per liter. My BMEP at peak torque is 184.37psi and BMEP at peak power is 159psi.
Next up is a 4.7L Euro S LH engine with full race exhaust (same as mine) but running a full L jet intake-injection. 10.4 CR. It made 327hp-350ftlbs. Nearly identical to mine as 69.6 HP/L and 74.5 ftlb/L. Its peak torque BMEP is 183.9psi and peak power of 159.7psi...
Moving on to 32V 928's
Mark Kiborts stroker, 6.4L with full race exhaust same as ours. A full 437hp and 480ftlbs!!! 68.3 HP/L and 75ftlbs/L Almost the same as both 16V engines....since the 32V head flows quite a bit better than the euro S, the intake must be the big restriction. BMEP at peak torque is 185.6psi and BMEP at peak power is 161.24 psi....very similar to the 16V euro engines.....
All three of these engines are quite mild, with stock or near stock cams and no high end parts. SO lets take a look at some more custom 928 engines!
Dennis "screamer" 5.0L Still very stock, just with custom ground cams. 441hp and 425 ftlbs.....VERY impressive results for still using stock valve sizes and stock intake! 88.2HP/L and 85ftlbs/L. BMEP at torque peak is 212psi and BMEP at peak HP is 192.75psi.....very impressive results when you consider a modern NASCAR engine is 226psi at torque peak and 211psi and HP peak....
Louie Ott's 6.4L stroker with custom ITB intakes, around 11-1 CR. I believe he has Devek custom cams as well. 685HP and 607ftlbs....WOW..... 106.9HP/L more impressive 94.8 ftlbs/L BMEP at torque peak is an amazingly high 234psi!!!! BMEP at HP peak is still high at 218.9psi... Louie's peak torque BMEP is near world class "engine master build challenge" for pushrod style engines. The winner of that competition tends to have peak torque BMEP of around 245psi!!!!! Or just 28ftlbs more than Louies engine.
Lastly we have Mike Simards 7.0L monster....full custom, super light parts to allow for 7500+ rpm, larger ITB intake than Louie (I think louie is 52mm Simard is 54mm). 752HP and 590ftlbs. The ability to turn more RPM helps make 107.4HP/L and 84.3 ftlbs/L. BMEP at peak torque is 208psi and only 188psi at Peak HP. The larger ITB's seem to drop off a bit of torque, but his engine is slightly lower CR at 10.5-1.
Clearly the 32V intake is a restriction......imagine what Dennis engine could do with an ITB....a properly sized ITB on a 5.0L could make 530hp and 474ftlbs if it performed similar to Louies......however Louis spins his up to 6350rpm at peak power....with peak torque around 5100rpm.... Simard makes peak power past 7000...maybe 7200!!!
So what does all of this mean...I dunno, its slow at work and calculating all this ate up some time!!!!
Lets start with the smallest engine of the bunch, my 1981 4.5L L jet motor (9-1 CR) with early Euro S cams, and custom ported heads. MSDS headers into Y pipe 3.5" exhaust. 311 crank HP 335ftlbs. This equates to 69 HP per liter and 74 ftlbs per liter. My BMEP at peak torque is 184.37psi and BMEP at peak power is 159psi.
Next up is a 4.7L Euro S LH engine with full race exhaust (same as mine) but running a full L jet intake-injection. 10.4 CR. It made 327hp-350ftlbs. Nearly identical to mine as 69.6 HP/L and 74.5 ftlb/L. Its peak torque BMEP is 183.9psi and peak power of 159.7psi...
Moving on to 32V 928's
Mark Kiborts stroker, 6.4L with full race exhaust same as ours. A full 437hp and 480ftlbs!!! 68.3 HP/L and 75ftlbs/L Almost the same as both 16V engines....since the 32V head flows quite a bit better than the euro S, the intake must be the big restriction. BMEP at peak torque is 185.6psi and BMEP at peak power is 161.24 psi....very similar to the 16V euro engines.....
All three of these engines are quite mild, with stock or near stock cams and no high end parts. SO lets take a look at some more custom 928 engines!
Dennis "screamer" 5.0L Still very stock, just with custom ground cams. 441hp and 425 ftlbs.....VERY impressive results for still using stock valve sizes and stock intake! 88.2HP/L and 85ftlbs/L. BMEP at torque peak is 212psi and BMEP at peak HP is 192.75psi.....very impressive results when you consider a modern NASCAR engine is 226psi at torque peak and 211psi and HP peak....
Louie Ott's 6.4L stroker with custom ITB intakes, around 11-1 CR. I believe he has Devek custom cams as well. 685HP and 607ftlbs....WOW..... 106.9HP/L more impressive 94.8 ftlbs/L BMEP at torque peak is an amazingly high 234psi!!!! BMEP at HP peak is still high at 218.9psi... Louie's peak torque BMEP is near world class "engine master build challenge" for pushrod style engines. The winner of that competition tends to have peak torque BMEP of around 245psi!!!!! Or just 28ftlbs more than Louies engine.
Lastly we have Mike Simards 7.0L monster....full custom, super light parts to allow for 7500+ rpm, larger ITB intake than Louie (I think louie is 52mm Simard is 54mm). 752HP and 590ftlbs. The ability to turn more RPM helps make 107.4HP/L and 84.3 ftlbs/L. BMEP at peak torque is 208psi and only 188psi at Peak HP. The larger ITB's seem to drop off a bit of torque, but his engine is slightly lower CR at 10.5-1.
Clearly the 32V intake is a restriction......imagine what Dennis engine could do with an ITB....a properly sized ITB on a 5.0L could make 530hp and 474ftlbs if it performed similar to Louies......however Louis spins his up to 6350rpm at peak power....with peak torque around 5100rpm.... Simard makes peak power past 7000...maybe 7200!!!
So what does all of this mean...I dunno, its slow at work and calculating all this ate up some time!!!!
Until you actually run all of those engines on a calibrated DTS engine dyno...drawing conclusions about anything is really tough.
Rwhp numbers are generally so "distorted" by "horsepower inflation" that most legitimate engine builders just laugh at them.
Note that the Nascar engine builders and the automobile makers don't quote rwhp numbers....and that the measurements for the "engine master build competition" aren't taken from "Freddie's Dynojunk Service" in Utah and then compared to "George's Dynojunk Tuning" in Nebraska.
There's a reason.....
06-11-2013, 09:52 AM
#6
Three Wheelin'
Until you actually run all of those engines on a calibrated DTS engine dyno...drawing conclusions about anything is really tough.
Rwhp numbers are generally so "distorted" by "horsepower inflation" that most legitimate engine builders just laugh at them.
Note that the Nascar engine builders and the automobile makers don't quote rwhp numbers....and that the measurements for the "engine master build competition" aren't taken from "Freddie's Dynojunk Service" in Utah and then compared to "George's Dynojunk Tuning" in Nebraska.
There's a reason.....
Rwhp numbers are generally so "distorted" by "horsepower inflation" that most legitimate engine builders just laugh at them.
Note that the Nascar engine builders and the automobile makers don't quote rwhp numbers....and that the measurements for the "engine master build competition" aren't taken from "Freddie's Dynojunk Service" in Utah and then compared to "George's Dynojunk Tuning" in Nebraska.
There's a reason.....
Most tuning changes I'll make are on the same chassis dyno, I'm not removing it for an engine dyno and even then it wouldn't be accurate unless I bring the exhaust and airbox.
I now see engine dyno reports and mentally figure out what WHP would be.
Engine dyno numbers are only good for the initial engine build and comparing Motor Trend road tests!
06-11-2013, 10:31 AM
#7
I got to watch Ott's on a dyno at the dynocom factory in '09. Damned impressive. Can't remember the HP/TQ numbers though.
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06-11-2013, 10:52 AM
#8
Three Wheelin'
06-11-2013, 10:59 AM
#9
06-11-2013, 05:08 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
In NASA racing, Dynojets are the mandatory standard for classes based on weight/power formulas. If I showed up with a freshly calibrated engine dyno report from a DTS, it would be meaningless. Same with other wheel dyno brands.
Most tuning changes I'll make are on the same chassis dyno, I'm not removing it for an engine dyno and even then it wouldn't be accurate unless I bring the exhaust and airbox.
I now see engine dyno reports and mentally figure out what WHP would be.
Engine dyno numbers are only good for the initial engine build and comparing Motor Trend road tests!
Most tuning changes I'll make are on the same chassis dyno, I'm not removing it for an engine dyno and even then it wouldn't be accurate unless I bring the exhaust and airbox.
I now see engine dyno reports and mentally figure out what WHP would be.
Engine dyno numbers are only good for the initial engine build and comparing Motor Trend road tests!
06-11-2013, 05:43 PM
#11
Former Sponsor
In NASA racing, Dynojets are the mandatory standard for classes based on weight/power formulas. If I showed up with a freshly calibrated engine dyno report from a DTS, it would be meaningless. Same with other wheel dyno brands.
Most tuning changes I'll make are on the same chassis dyno, I'm not removing it for an engine dyno and even then it wouldn't be accurate unless I bring the exhaust and airbox.
I now see engine dyno reports and mentally figure out what WHP would be.
Engine dyno numbers are only good for the initial engine build and comparing Motor Trend road tests!
Most tuning changes I'll make are on the same chassis dyno, I'm not removing it for an engine dyno and even then it wouldn't be accurate unless I bring the exhaust and airbox.
I now see engine dyno reports and mentally figure out what WHP would be.
Engine dyno numbers are only good for the initial engine build and comparing Motor Trend road tests!
Please read what I wrote, again.
Nascar engine builders don't use chassis dynos. Those engines are developed and the horsepower output is measured on an engine dyno....like 99.9% of professional engine builders use.
Nascar (themselves) may bring a calibrated dyno to one facility to test all of the car, at the same time.....they might even own a dyno, which retains the same calibration and then take it to different places.....but they are using this as a "reference tool" to class the cars.....not an absolute measuring device.
You might be able to trust your results from the same dyno that you use over and over again (I do this, too)....right up to the point where they have it worked on or re-calibrated, but comparing your results to a result that Louis Ott got is useless. These RWHP dyno shops have no "standard" to calibrate their dyno. People's ego's tend for them to want their engine to be more powerful, therefore, dyno shops that "inflate" results get more business and more repeat business. This is what causes "inflated horsepower" results.
Hell, change your tire pressures up and down 30 pounds and compare the results....on the same day. Put a set of really sticky rear tires on and compare the results.
Can't do that on an engine dyno.
Do you seriously think that Carl is making 900rwhp, yet can't pull 5th gear?
That's my point. Comparing results that can be "altered" by a setting or by how much air you have in your tires is futile....at best.
Last edited by GregBBRD; 06-11-2013 at 06:02 PM.
06-11-2013, 05:47 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
I got to watch Ott's on a dyno at the dynocom factory in '09. Damned impressive. Can't remember the HP/TQ numbers though.
As I remember it, he got 499 hp, because he was disappointed it didn't break 500!
06-11-2013, 07:01 PM
#13
Race Director
Thread Starter
rear wheel dyno's do have quite a bit of wiggle room..............
Assuming a 15% driveline loss is not 100% accurate either.....but they are commonly known figures....Corvette guys that also run a TT setup figure their losses at around 10%....kinda like 911's or mid engine cars with no driveshaft at all....
However you can only make so much torque per Cubic inch normally aspirated on street gas....just look at all the new high RPM monster motors Ferrari 458 is a 4.5L V8 makes 398 ftlbs or a torque peak (at 6000 rpm 1.45 ftlbs per CI or 88.4ftlbs/L) BMEP of 219psi which is VERY good, but requires direct injection and very high end expensive parts to do it.....sure it also makes 562hp @ 9000rpm.....which is "only" 328ftlbs.....so its BMEP at power peak is only 180psi......
My engine is also 4.5L but doesn't have anywhere near the parts-cams-intake to spin even 7000.....
More HP is a simple equation
1: More displacement
2: More RPM
3: Boost....
None are cheap when done right.......pick your poison.....
Assuming a 15% driveline loss is not 100% accurate either.....but they are commonly known figures....Corvette guys that also run a TT setup figure their losses at around 10%....kinda like 911's or mid engine cars with no driveshaft at all....
However you can only make so much torque per Cubic inch normally aspirated on street gas....just look at all the new high RPM monster motors Ferrari 458 is a 4.5L V8 makes 398 ftlbs or a torque peak (at 6000 rpm 1.45 ftlbs per CI or 88.4ftlbs/L) BMEP of 219psi which is VERY good, but requires direct injection and very high end expensive parts to do it.....sure it also makes 562hp @ 9000rpm.....which is "only" 328ftlbs.....so its BMEP at power peak is only 180psi......
My engine is also 4.5L but doesn't have anywhere near the parts-cams-intake to spin even 7000.....
More HP is a simple equation
1: More displacement
2: More RPM
3: Boost....
None are cheap when done right.......pick your poison.....
