86.5 / Manual / Torque Tube Bearing Failure??
05-13-2013, 12:57 AM
#32
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Since the last time I was on here we've made some progress. New motor mounts installed and just finished putting in the BlackSea R&D Super Bearings in the TT with the flywheel resurfaced. Here is a quick write up on the TT job and the results.
We dropped the exhaust, heat shields, loosened the tranny mounts and got the TT out with no issues - not nearly as hard a job as advertised (especially with a lift) but it does take some time. We also took out the clutch and had the flywheel resurfaced - the pressure plate & intermediate plate looked fine (in the words of the machine shop owner). Note to file: If you take out the clutch you HAVE to put the little horseshoe spacers in the pressure plate BEFORE you try to remove it... DUH!!! Forget one little step and it makes it a bear getting the clutch in & out...
Anyway, knocking out the old bearings and replacing with Super Bearings was not a hard job at all - just followed the directions provided by Constantine - easy. The old bearings were bad and the vibration dampner was SHOT with the exterior housing rubber worn down badly. We got the Super Bearings installed and back in the shark lickety-split. The clutch took some time (see above for reason why). I put it back together with the friction plates 180 degrees opposed (per WSM), both installed in the correct direction, centering pins in, bolts torqued, proper grease, etc... Had to readjust the Lizard short shifter since it got bumped around, but no real issues to speak of...
She drove just fine till she got warmed up. Then started shuddering in 1st gear coming out of a stand-still or while slow parking lot manuevering... STILL... UGHHHHH... This is NOT caused by the TT super bearings - those bearings are HUGE and put in correctly. We took out the Porken PKalm clamps on the drive shaft coupler - so they are not the issue either. Everything is back to stock with the exception of the super bearings. I may reinstall the PKalm clamps to see if they help now that the TT bearings have been addressed and the cause of that vibration is gone.
Once out of the hole she shifts smooth with no issues. NO chatter and NO vibrations at all sitting in neutral or in gear with the clutch pedal depressed!!! YES!!! Just letting out the clutch from a stand-still makes it want to shudder and/or kind of "bump" almost like an old Dodge if you let the clutch out a little quicker. Soooo... half the problem has been solved (vibrations, chattering, etc). The shuddering is STILL THERE... Its still very driveable, just annoying as hell... and a little embarrassing. The intermediate plate adjustment may STILL be the culprit. Colin is assisting with an intermediate plate fix. Gotta love the 928 Guru guys!! Were slowly but surely getting this resolved
I'll log back in when the intermediate plate has been addressed and we'll see where were at... Very happy with BlackSea R&D's Super Bearings, the quality is top shelf and the install directions were spot on!
We dropped the exhaust, heat shields, loosened the tranny mounts and got the TT out with no issues - not nearly as hard a job as advertised (especially with a lift) but it does take some time. We also took out the clutch and had the flywheel resurfaced - the pressure plate & intermediate plate looked fine (in the words of the machine shop owner). Note to file: If you take out the clutch you HAVE to put the little horseshoe spacers in the pressure plate BEFORE you try to remove it... DUH!!! Forget one little step and it makes it a bear getting the clutch in & out...
Anyway, knocking out the old bearings and replacing with Super Bearings was not a hard job at all - just followed the directions provided by Constantine - easy. The old bearings were bad and the vibration dampner was SHOT with the exterior housing rubber worn down badly. We got the Super Bearings installed and back in the shark lickety-split. The clutch took some time (see above for reason why). I put it back together with the friction plates 180 degrees opposed (per WSM), both installed in the correct direction, centering pins in, bolts torqued, proper grease, etc... Had to readjust the Lizard short shifter since it got bumped around, but no real issues to speak of...
She drove just fine till she got warmed up. Then started shuddering in 1st gear coming out of a stand-still or while slow parking lot manuevering... STILL... UGHHHHH...
This is NOT caused by the TT super bearings - those bearings are HUGE and put in correctly. We took out the Porken PKalm clamps on the drive shaft coupler - so they are not the issue either. Everything is back to stock with the exception of the super bearings. I may reinstall the PKalm clamps to see if they help now that the TT bearings have been addressed and the cause of that vibration is gone.Once out of the hole she shifts smooth with no issues. NO chatter and NO vibrations at all sitting in neutral or in gear with the clutch pedal depressed!!! YES!!! Just letting out the clutch from a stand-still makes it want to shudder and/or kind of "bump" almost like an old Dodge if you let the clutch out a little quicker. Soooo... half the problem has been solved (vibrations, chattering, etc). The shuddering is STILL THERE... Its still very driveable, just annoying as hell... and a little embarrassing. The intermediate plate adjustment may STILL be the culprit. Colin is assisting with an intermediate plate fix. Gotta love the 928 Guru guys!! Were slowly but surely getting this resolved
I'll log back in when the intermediate plate has been addressed and we'll see where were at... Very happy with BlackSea R&D's Super Bearings, the quality is top shelf and the install directions were spot on!
05-13-2013, 01:05 AM
#33
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
By the way... We found THREE torque tube bearings and ONE vibration dampner. Hans or Franz must've put in an extra bearing when no one was looking 
All three bearings were on their way out and the vibration dampner was toast...
All three bearings were on their way out and the vibration dampner was toast...
05-13-2013, 01:47 AM
#34
Nordschleife Master
Joel,
I actually just had a thought.
Please put the car back up and make sure that all 4 of your engine to bellhousing bolts are fully torqued to factory spec!
I actually just had a thought.
Please put the car back up and make sure that all 4 of your engine to bellhousing bolts are fully torqued to factory spec!
05-13-2013, 06:34 AM
#35
Former Vendor
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Hi Joel,
Great news about your TT refurb, glad it went well and that overall it helped with your driving pleasure of your 928 again!
From what we have seen, Porsche usually put in three bearings and a vibration dampener in all 5-speed TTs.
Puzzling about the shuddering on takeoff. Colin has a good idea above and maybe the shuddering problem is something as simple as what he suggests.
Good luck with the diagnosis and please let us all know the outcome.
Kind regards,
Great news about your TT refurb, glad it went well and that overall it helped with your driving pleasure of your 928 again!
From what we have seen, Porsche usually put in three bearings and a vibration dampener in all 5-speed TTs.
Puzzling about the shuddering on takeoff. Colin has a good idea above and maybe the shuddering problem is something as simple as what he suggests.
Good luck with the diagnosis and please let us all know the outcome.
Kind regards,
05-13-2013, 02:41 PM
#36
Instructor
Hi Joel,
I've been watching this thread because my early 86 5-speed (50k miles) has the exact same issue (noise like a loud rattling/vibration noise) at low speed maneuvers - usually trying to park in a space at low speed or pull into the garage. If our car had the clutch in front like a normal car, that's where it sounds like it is coming from (around the engine firewall area). But since the clutch is up back, that's why I think it is something else.
Stan (Mrmerlin) thought the TT might be the problem, too. I can avoid the noise about 50% of the time if I'm REALLLYYY careful with the way I engage the clutch. My car shifts fine, and I don't notice too much vibration (Stan just changed my MM/OPG).
The noise is the most embarrassing thing, because people notice and watch 928s, and sounding like it is going to fall apart while driving away doesn't help with the Porsche "mystique" LOL.
Please keep the thread updated, as I'm really interested to see what you discover.
-Steve
I've been watching this thread because my early 86 5-speed (50k miles) has the exact same issue (noise like a loud rattling/vibration noise) at low speed maneuvers - usually trying to park in a space at low speed or pull into the garage. If our car had the clutch in front like a normal car, that's where it sounds like it is coming from (around the engine firewall area). But since the clutch is up back, that's why I think it is something else.
Stan (Mrmerlin) thought the TT might be the problem, too. I can avoid the noise about 50% of the time if I'm REALLLYYY careful with the way I engage the clutch. My car shifts fine, and I don't notice too much vibration (Stan just changed my MM/OPG).
The noise is the most embarrassing thing, because people notice and watch 928s, and sounding like it is going to fall apart while driving away doesn't help with the Porsche "mystique" LOL.
Please keep the thread updated, as I'm really interested to see what you discover.
-Steve
05-13-2013, 02:52 PM
#37
being that i was the one who took his TT about... AND the old bearings... while Joel was getting the fly wheel re surfaced, the old bearings were not crunchy... but close. you could spin the shaft and that sucker would just keep going and going... felt like no "bearing resistance" or grease was left in them.
Simple instructions and a quick install, good work Constantine.
his is like a slow "shudder" when he creeps in first, or gets going. and it only really noticeable when its warmed up... its clutch for sure.
Simple instructions and a quick install, good work Constantine.
his is like a slow "shudder" when he creeps in first, or gets going. and it only really noticeable when its warmed up... its clutch for sure.
05-13-2013, 03:38 PM
#39
Instructor
Hi Lizard,
My bad, I was thinking transaxle and the TT being in the back, but typed in clutch. I was looking up clutch kits at the time and most were about $1,300+ or so; ouch!
I'll have to check the bolt tightness like was suggested. I'm watching what Joel is finding while troubleshooting his noise to see if there is anything else I should be looking to fix or replace.
If I need to, I'll see about buying all the clutch parts and talking to Stan about changing it. I'm hoping to put it off until the fall, if possible.
-Steve
My bad, I was thinking transaxle and the TT being in the back, but typed in clutch. I was looking up clutch kits at the time and most were about $1,300+ or so; ouch!
I'll have to check the bolt tightness like was suggested. I'm watching what Joel is finding while troubleshooting his noise to see if there is anything else I should be looking to fix or replace.
If I need to, I'll see about buying all the clutch parts and talking to Stan about changing it. I'm hoping to put it off until the fall, if possible.
-Steve
05-13-2013, 03:58 PM
#40
the only other thing we have spotted that is an issue is the wear on the "fingers" of the pressure plate, but eh throw out washer. they are not half gone, still has some meat on them. but other than that, all is new or looks fantastic.
or he just had a small stroke and forgot how to use a clutch......
or he just had a small stroke and forgot how to use a clutch......
05-13-2013, 10:34 PM
#41
Former Vendor
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being that i was the one who took his TT about... AND the old bearings... while Joel was getting the fly wheel re surfaced, the old bearings were not crunchy... but close. you could spin the shaft and that sucker would just keep going and going... felt like no "bearing resistance" or grease was left in them.
Simple instructions and a quick install, good work Constantine.
his is like a slow "shudder" when he creeps in first, or gets going. and it only really noticeable when its warmed up... its clutch for sure.
Simple instructions and a quick install, good work Constantine.
his is like a slow "shudder" when he creeps in first, or gets going. and it only really noticeable when its warmed up... its clutch for sure.
Took awhile to get it to this stage with a lot of trial and error. The payoff is to hear this type of report from our end users.
Good luck with helping to find the cause of the take off shudder.
Kind regards,
05-14-2013, 10:32 PM
#42
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I do have a question for you all. Jake has a pressure plate with minimal wear but we cant find a 928 part # anywhere... We are contemplating changing the pressure plate as well, but... here's the question: Besides the later pressure plates having alignment dowels/pins (two straight & one stepped - NLA by the way) is there any OTHER differences between the older pressure plates and a 86 MY plate... a.k.a. will it fit? The SACHS # 3082 111 132
Long shot I know, but worth asking
05-14-2013, 10:35 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
05-16-2013, 04:30 PM
#44
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I have a question for you all. Jake has a pressure plate with minimal wear but we cant find a 928 part # anywhere... The SACHS # 3082 111 132 We are contemplating changing the pressure plate, but... here's the question:
Besides the later pressure plates having alignment dowels/pins - two straight & one stepped (NLA) is there any OTHER differences between the 78/79 MY pressure plates and a 80-86 MY pressure plate... a.k.a. will it fit? Long shot I know, but worth asking
Besides the later pressure plates having alignment dowels/pins - two straight & one stepped (NLA) is there any OTHER differences between the 78/79 MY pressure plates and a 80-86 MY pressure plate... a.k.a. will it fit? Long shot I know, but worth asking
05-17-2013, 07:53 PM
#45
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
BUMP!!! Jake, Looks like its just you and me... We'll figure it out - it'll either work or it wont.