Head Gasket No Man"s Land
01-05-2013, 10:47 AM
#32
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Denny, sorry I've been slow on the reply to the suggestions from you and Jim...unfortunately, I couldn't focus on my car this past week. I'm hoping to have some time to try out the suggestions from you and Jim over the weekend...I'll post what I come up with after trying these out.
Dave
Dave
01-22-2013, 11:43 PM
#33
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Sorry for not responding for a while, but I've been dealing with stuff that's prevented me from focusing on my car's head issue. This past weekend however, I found some time to try out Jim and Denny's suggestions. Swapping the driver and passenger intake cams really didn't change things a whole lot - the passenger side cam In
oops...hit post too soon... see post #35
oops...hit post too soon... see post #35
Last edited by aaddpp; 01-23-2013 at 01:16 AM.
01-23-2013, 01:05 AM
#35
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Sorry for not responding for a while, but I've been dealing with stuff that's prevented me from focusing on my car's head issue. This past weekend however, I found some time to try out Jim and Denny's suggestions.
Swapping the driver and passenger intake cams really didn't change things a whole lot - the passenger side intake cam was noticeably harder to rotate with either intake cam installed.
After that I removed the all the cams and tried the cigarette paper / straight edge suggestion. I met with mixed results here, possibly because the journals are round and my edge is square, so I'm getting two contact points on the arc of the journal. That said, on one attempt, I was able to get the straight edge seated on all of the journals except for #8 on the passenger side (thats the rear most intake journal). This was the only journal where the paper moved easily. Repeating these results was hard though, so I can't say that this test gave a conclusive result.
Next, I put the passenger intake cam back in, tightened the caps, and attempted to spin the cam - same deal, tight. I then backed off on cam caps one at a time. Each time the #8 passenger journal cap was released (rear most passenger intake cap) the cam spun more freely. Tightening it caused binding again. Backing off on the other caps didn't allow the cam to spin as freely. Based on this, it seems like the #8 journal is recessed / misaligned slightly, and the cap is binding the cam when the cap is torqued down.
Worth noting...back when I pulled the passenger cam cover off, there was a burnt smell coming from that head, the cause of which I never figured out since everything appeared to be in good shape, except for a half bulging oil hole plug - not sure it was out enough to alter pressure / flow of the oil. Now I'm wondering (a little), if this issue could have been there before, and / or could welding have added to the issue. The #8 passenger journal shows now signs of scorching BTW, so I have doubts that it was there. I also want to mention there was a tappet on this head that wouldn't quite down - for what ever reason - when the engine ran.
So now it time to consider my next move. Is this head worth repairing or is it better to replace it all together? I've read up on aluminum head straitening...it sounds like some options that include shims and ovens, can be quite pricy, while other options of heating a specific area are less so. I be interested to hear what you all think, and what approach you'd consider here.
Thanks - Dave
Swapping the driver and passenger intake cams really didn't change things a whole lot - the passenger side intake cam was noticeably harder to rotate with either intake cam installed.
After that I removed the all the cams and tried the cigarette paper / straight edge suggestion. I met with mixed results here, possibly because the journals are round and my edge is square, so I'm getting two contact points on the arc of the journal. That said, on one attempt, I was able to get the straight edge seated on all of the journals except for #8 on the passenger side (thats the rear most intake journal). This was the only journal where the paper moved easily. Repeating these results was hard though, so I can't say that this test gave a conclusive result.
Next, I put the passenger intake cam back in, tightened the caps, and attempted to spin the cam - same deal, tight. I then backed off on cam caps one at a time. Each time the #8 passenger journal cap was released (rear most passenger intake cap) the cam spun more freely. Tightening it caused binding again. Backing off on the other caps didn't allow the cam to spin as freely. Based on this, it seems like the #8 journal is recessed / misaligned slightly, and the cap is binding the cam when the cap is torqued down.
Worth noting...back when I pulled the passenger cam cover off, there was a burnt smell coming from that head, the cause of which I never figured out since everything appeared to be in good shape, except for a half bulging oil hole plug - not sure it was out enough to alter pressure / flow of the oil. Now I'm wondering (a little), if this issue could have been there before, and / or could welding have added to the issue. The #8 passenger journal shows now signs of scorching BTW, so I have doubts that it was there. I also want to mention there was a tappet on this head that wouldn't quite down - for what ever reason - when the engine ran.
So now it time to consider my next move. Is this head worth repairing or is it better to replace it all together? I've read up on aluminum head straitening...it sounds like some options that include shims and ovens, can be quite pricy, while other options of heating a specific area are less so. I be interested to hear what you all think, and what approach you'd consider here.
Thanks - Dave
Last edited by aaddpp; 01-23-2013 at 01:22 AM.
01-23-2013, 02:13 AM
#36
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Interesting.
It's tough to know what to do, without knowing all the little details. How much welding was required? Did they "preheat" the entire head, before welding, or did they just step down on the pedal and start flaming metal on? I'd guess the latter.
These heads are pretty "stout" and seem to rarely warp a significant amount.
That being said, from what you are saying, this head has been warped enough to distort the surface where the cam cover sits and the bores for the one cam....and then it was surfaced.
Frankly, at this point in time, used heads are plentiful enough and cheap enough that anything that is questionable simply isn't worth the time (or risk) to play around with, for very many hours. Certainly would not seem to be worth the cost of bolting it onto an engine and finding out what happens. Sure it could be align bored (if you can find someone qualified to do this)....but I'm guessing that a used head is worth less than this would cost.
Call 928 International (you should have done this, last month, when things were half price) and buy a used head with a similar casting date as the heads you have. This will ensure that the combustion chambers are very close to the same volume that you currently have. Have it surfaced to match your one good head and move on.
Life is way too short to fret about things like this...or even get slightly frustrated. I'm going to guess, that in your overall life experience, this one cylinder head will not even "register" high enough on the trauma scale to even be remembered.
It's tough to know what to do, without knowing all the little details. How much welding was required? Did they "preheat" the entire head, before welding, or did they just step down on the pedal and start flaming metal on? I'd guess the latter.
These heads are pretty "stout" and seem to rarely warp a significant amount.
That being said, from what you are saying, this head has been warped enough to distort the surface where the cam cover sits and the bores for the one cam....and then it was surfaced.
Frankly, at this point in time, used heads are plentiful enough and cheap enough that anything that is questionable simply isn't worth the time (or risk) to play around with, for very many hours. Certainly would not seem to be worth the cost of bolting it onto an engine and finding out what happens. Sure it could be align bored (if you can find someone qualified to do this)....but I'm guessing that a used head is worth less than this would cost.
Call 928 International (you should have done this, last month, when things were half price) and buy a used head with a similar casting date as the heads you have. This will ensure that the combustion chambers are very close to the same volume that you currently have. Have it surfaced to match your one good head and move on.
Life is way too short to fret about things like this...or even get slightly frustrated. I'm going to guess, that in your overall life experience, this one cylinder head will not even "register" high enough on the trauma scale to even be remembered.
01-24-2013, 05:38 PM
#37
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Interesting.
It's tough to know what to do, without knowing all the little details. How much welding was required? Did they "preheat" the entire head, before welding, or did they just step down on the pedal and start flaming metal on? I'd guess the latter.
These heads are pretty "stout" and seem to rarely warp a significant amount.
That being said, from what you are saying, this head has been warped enough to distort the surface where the cam cover sits and the bores for the one cam....and then it was surfaced.
Frankly, at this point in time, used heads are plentiful enough and cheap enough that anything that is questionable simply isn't worth the time (or risk) to play around with, for very many hours. Certainly would not seem to be worth the cost of bolting it onto an engine and finding out what happens. Sure it could be align bored (if you can find someone qualified to do this)....but I'm guessing that a used head is worth less than this would cost.
Call 928 International (you should have done this, last month, when things were half price) and buy a used head with a similar casting date as the heads you have. This will ensure that the combustion chambers are very close to the same volume that you currently have. Have it surfaced to match your one good head and move on.
Life is way too short to fret about things like this...or even get slightly frustrated. I'm going to guess, that in your overall life experience, this one cylinder head will not even "register" high enough on the trauma scale to even be remembered.
It's tough to know what to do, without knowing all the little details. How much welding was required? Did they "preheat" the entire head, before welding, or did they just step down on the pedal and start flaming metal on? I'd guess the latter.
These heads are pretty "stout" and seem to rarely warp a significant amount.
That being said, from what you are saying, this head has been warped enough to distort the surface where the cam cover sits and the bores for the one cam....and then it was surfaced.
Frankly, at this point in time, used heads are plentiful enough and cheap enough that anything that is questionable simply isn't worth the time (or risk) to play around with, for very many hours. Certainly would not seem to be worth the cost of bolting it onto an engine and finding out what happens. Sure it could be align bored (if you can find someone qualified to do this)....but I'm guessing that a used head is worth less than this would cost.
Call 928 International (you should have done this, last month, when things were half price) and buy a used head with a similar casting date as the heads you have. This will ensure that the combustion chambers are very close to the same volume that you currently have. Have it surfaced to match your one good head and move on.
Life is way too short to fret about things like this...or even get slightly frustrated. I'm going to guess, that in your overall life experience, this one cylinder head will not even "register" high enough on the trauma scale to even be remembered.
One follow on question. Heads I've noticed are marked PS and DS - both I understand are identical, just reversed. I'm wondering if you can replace a head marked PS with one marked DS - I realize it will "fit", but then the rear most journals of the DS head now become the front journals of the PS head, and...you have four center journals that have seen use, and one that is virgin since the shortened cams didn't reach it on the driver side. This just sounds like a bad idea, but, if its not, it might allow me to find / use a head with a closer casting date.
Thank you again - Dave
Here is some >>>> interesting reading <<<< that might help.
Last edited by aaddpp; 01-24-2013 at 08:24 PM.
01-24-2013, 09:40 PM
#38
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Thanks Greg, I appreciate your thoughts here. I had a feeling that a replacement head might be the way to go eapecially when I read what some of the time / labor requirements were to re-align an aluminum head. Like the next person, I'd always rather save $ than spend it, but sometimes that's just not the way things work out. Replacement should hopefully remove any concerns I had about the burnt smell I noticed after removing the cam cover on this head too.
One follow on question. Heads I've noticed are marked PS and DS - both I understand are identical, just reversed. I'm wondering if you can replace a head marked PS with one marked DS - I realize it will "fit", but then the rear most journals of the DS head now become the front journals of the PS head, and...you have four center journals that have seen use, and one that is virgin since the shortened cams didn't reach it on the driver side. This just sounds like a bad idea, but, if its not, it might allow me to find / use a head with a closer casting date.
Thank you again - Dave
One follow on question. Heads I've noticed are marked PS and DS - both I understand are identical, just reversed. I'm wondering if you can replace a head marked PS with one marked DS - I realize it will "fit", but then the rear most journals of the DS head now become the front journals of the PS head, and...you have four center journals that have seen use, and one that is virgin since the shortened cams didn't reach it on the driver side. This just sounds like a bad idea, but, if its not, it might allow me to find / use a head with a closer casting date.
Thank you again - Dave
I would not worry about it, running different cams in a different head. Realistically, if the bores are worn bad enough to make a difference, you don't want that head, anyway.
However, I'd virtually guarantee that 928 International can supply you with a head from whatever side you ask for.....and if you want to re-use your own valves to save a few bucks....I bet they have bare heads also.
01-26-2013, 10:10 PM
#39
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Completely interchangeable. I don't swap them around on an engine that exists....might as well run the camshafts in the same journals.
I would not worry about it, running different cams in a different head. Realistically, if the bores are worn bad enough to make a difference, you don't want that head, anyway.
However, I'd virtually guarantee that 928 International can supply you with a head from whatever side you ask for.....and if you want to re-use your own valves to save a few bucks....I bet they have bare heads also.
I would not worry about it, running different cams in a different head. Realistically, if the bores are worn bad enough to make a difference, you don't want that head, anyway.
However, I'd virtually guarantee that 928 International can supply you with a head from whatever side you ask for.....and if you want to re-use your own valves to save a few bucks....I bet they have bare heads also.
Last edited by aaddpp; 01-26-2013 at 11:49 PM.
01-27-2013, 12:15 AM
#40
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......... Heads I've noticed are marked PS and DS - both I understand are identical, just reversed. I'm wondering if you can replace a head marked PS with one marked DS - I realize it will "fit", but then the rear most journals of the DS head now become the front journals of the PS head, and...you have four center journals that have seen use, and one that is virgin ...........
01-27-2013, 12:31 AM
#41
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01-27-2013, 02:15 AM
#42
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........ I was able to get the straight edge seated on all of the journals except for #8 on the passenger side (thats the rear most intake journal). ............ I then backed off on cam caps one at a time. Each time the #8 passenger journal cap was released (rear most passenger intake cap) the cam spun more freely. Tightening it caused binding again. .............. it seems like the #8 journal is recessed / misaligned slightly, and the cap is binding the cam when the cap is torqued down. ...............
How much do you have to loosen it to get "free rotation"?
Maybe you could shim the cap a thousanth or so and be ok. Obviously you wouldn't want to shim too much but it might be worth a try.
Or just replace the head.
01-30-2013, 12:47 PM
#43
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I meant "rotate the cams 180" but after reviewing a previous post it would seem that would just move the tight one to the front.
How much do you have to loosen it to get "free rotation"?
Maybe you could shim the cap a thousanth or so and be ok. Obviously you wouldn't want to shim too much but it might be worth a try.
Or just replace the head.
How much do you have to loosen it to get "free rotation"?
Maybe you could shim the cap a thousanth or so and be ok. Obviously you wouldn't want to shim too much but it might be worth a try.
Or just replace the head.
I've also been interested in checking the cam shaft to journal tolerances, but I haven't been able to find that figure in any of the WSM / TSB materials I have. Just interested to see if there was any excessive wear before hand, and make sure the cam shafts check out. If anyone has / knows where to find that tolerance (and/or a run out) figure, I'd be very grateful.
At this point, I'm inclined to just swap this head out for a replacement. Shimming / aligning sounds like a fair amount of work, and since there aren't really any guarantees, I think I'll just go the safe route, and just start fresh.
01-30-2013, 02:35 PM
#44
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You'll probably want two pieces, since you seem to have misalignment, which will alter the way you reading. You should be able to add the two together to get total.
Check here. >>>> WSM Head Machining.pdf <<<<
Last edited by depami; 01-30-2013 at 03:00 PM.
01-31-2013, 01:36 AM
#45
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>>>> Plastigage <<<< should give you some idea. Should be available at your local auto parts store.
You'll probably want two pieces, since you seem to have misalignment, which will alter the way you reading. You should be able to add the two together to get total.
Check here. >>>> Attachment 699364 <<<<
You'll probably want two pieces, since you seem to have misalignment, which will alter the way you reading. You should be able to add the two together to get total.
Check here. >>>> Attachment 699364 <<<<
Thanks again - Dave
