Malcolm
09-03-2012, 02:37 PM
#166
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09-03-2012, 02:56 PM
#167
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It looks to me like Stan needs to just let go and trust the community. Does everyone assume that this is natural or easy for him? It sounds like Stan needs, or possibly deserves, a soft landing from his literal years of volunteerism. I believe that he wishes to see greater volunteerism from others to make him feel better about letting go. But perhaps a different leader can better harness the energy of the community and channel it? I am not convinced that much thought has been put into transition strategy. It sounds like many anticipate a hissy fit if the "wrong" candidate is elected.
I do not need a soft landing, the quicker the better. I have told James I will do what he needs me to do, while he orients his team.
Personally I am much better off if Andrew wins, as I get my life back immediately. Andrew has said he has his own team and while I have no idea how they know how the club functions, since they have no involvement, it is not my concern. Andrew has said he will change things, not from what or to what, but as I am uninvolved it is not my concern.
All the fuss started when I challenged Andrew's statements about the clubs current status as well as its history. I know the history of the club for the part 9 years, and as president I consider it my duty to ensure the members know the facts. For example, he makes a big deal out of a vendor discount program that he wants to implement, yet it is already in place, and had Andrew chose to volunteer 2 years ago, he could have developed that program in the direction he chose. In spite of his past pre-elections promises to volunteer whether he won or not, Andrew lost, then cut and run, evening allowing his membership to expire. Just the facts for you, nothing else here.
It should be noted, there is still no details of the changes Andrew will make, or now existing programs will be dropped, or how he will administrate anything. Andrew has stated he won't have time, and the administration is not what he sees as a presidential function. But who then will do it? Perhaps a vendor that has offered. How will that be perceived by other vendors?
09-03-2012, 03:01 PM
#168
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Ironic you posting the bylaws. It seems just a month ago you finally got around to looking at them, after being a board member for a year. Slow reader are you?
09-03-2012, 03:15 PM
#169
Drifting
Wow, everyone seems to see the issues from a different set of eyes.
Hi my name is Brad and I'm a volunteer mod at 928oc.
This position is granted or removed by the prez or board, I not sure which
When all of the excitement started to happen it was very overwhelming because for the 2 years that I have been at the OC, there has not been any fighting or rule infractions that I am aware of.
My first actions as a mod was to worn Stan and then later (a day or 2) I closed the tread due to heated discussion between Stan and another person. I believe I may have done that to him and those that were involved twice.
I was told by the other mod that I acted a little fast the first time, but it was inevitable.
Everyone took it personal except for Stan.
I tried to lighten the atmosphere by continuing a thread that was started over here
and Sean told me it was in poor taste because I was not that persons friend and he was.
Due to a death in our family I did not get back to the forum for a day at which time I closed the thread. Sorry ....
TO BE CLEAR
Stan has never! Ever, directed me or encouraged or insinuated that I mod in any direction and has always left it up to the Mods.
This brings us to Malcolm.
Malcolm is the first 928 owner I met. He has friended me, guided some of my work and went out of his way to help me,
and he gave me a great deal on some rims,(which he delivered 4 hours away)
He also picked up my R12 AC charge station and stored it till I could meet him and pick it up. Then Malcolm Deb and I had lunch.
Malcolm became a friend who has done more for me then I have been able to do for him. Thank you buddy.
Due to the issues in my life I only vaguely saw what happened with the edit that ended in Malcolm's loss of mod status.
When I did go back and check it out it was about a week gone by
and Malcolm had already announced that he was leaving and that he wanted his post removed.
Malcolm removed his name from nomination and I see here on RL that Roger may have done the same.
As the mods here on RL can confirm, I can see every edit or change that is made.
I asked Stan and Austin to review Malcolm's edits in case a mistake was made.
I opened it up and PM them both with all edit info and all areas were talked about.
I sat on the phone with Austin from midnight to 3 am talking about Malcolm's changes to another persons post.
Malcolm is my friend and I thought a mistake may have been made during high emotions.
It was felt that its possible but the only one who knows his heart when the edits were made is Malcolm.
His mod status was not returned which Austin and I have no decision in.
Through all this I tried my best to be fair
and I believe some of you were very inconsiderate of what we have to try and balance without knowing all of your dirty laundry
Let alone during my own life's loss (seems kind of trivial)
Austin handled the soft/post deletion for Sean and Malcolm so that if they want to return, nothing is lost.
Austin also decided to temporally lock their user names / IP address. He said that since it was a public request to leave then it should show that the mods acted.
I agree.
The election
Because everyone would like their choice for prez to win and because there are only 2 candidates,
we have a 50/50 split and everyone tried to campaign louder then the next guy.
During this time there was some name calling, character stomping
and at the end of the day Austin and I had everyone's dirty laundry thrown all over the place.
Austin and I don't know and dont want to know how your shorts got soiled and why your nickers are in a knot.
We just have to keep the floor clear so that the regulars dont trip on it or in some cases have to see your dirt
You all should try to remember that these are real people with real families.
They have lives and problems that you may not know the extent of.
It is very hard to see someone's body language or see that they may be drinking a beer
and laughing as they post something and had no idea that you would take offense to it.
Well thats my 2 cents.
My name is Brad, I am not an alcoholic,
but I am 1 of the mods at the 928 Owners Club, at least for now, and I am a volunteer.
Have a Great 928 Day!
Hi my name is Brad and I'm a volunteer mod at 928oc.
This position is granted or removed by the prez or board, I not sure which
When all of the excitement started to happen it was very overwhelming because for the 2 years that I have been at the OC, there has not been any fighting or rule infractions that I am aware of.
My first actions as a mod was to worn Stan and then later (a day or 2) I closed the tread due to heated discussion between Stan and another person. I believe I may have done that to him and those that were involved twice.
I was told by the other mod that I acted a little fast the first time, but it was inevitable.
Everyone took it personal except for Stan.
I tried to lighten the atmosphere by continuing a thread that was started over here
and Sean told me it was in poor taste because I was not that persons friend and he was.
Due to a death in our family I did not get back to the forum for a day at which time I closed the thread. Sorry ....
TO BE CLEAR
Stan has never! Ever, directed me or encouraged or insinuated that I mod in any direction and has always left it up to the Mods.
This brings us to Malcolm.
Malcolm is the first 928 owner I met. He has friended me, guided some of my work and went out of his way to help me,
and he gave me a great deal on some rims,(which he delivered 4 hours away)
He also picked up my R12 AC charge station and stored it till I could meet him and pick it up. Then Malcolm Deb and I had lunch.
Malcolm became a friend who has done more for me then I have been able to do for him. Thank you buddy.
Due to the issues in my life I only vaguely saw what happened with the edit that ended in Malcolm's loss of mod status.
When I did go back and check it out it was about a week gone by
and Malcolm had already announced that he was leaving and that he wanted his post removed.
Malcolm removed his name from nomination and I see here on RL that Roger may have done the same.
As the mods here on RL can confirm, I can see every edit or change that is made.
I asked Stan and Austin to review Malcolm's edits in case a mistake was made.
I opened it up and PM them both with all edit info and all areas were talked about.
I sat on the phone with Austin from midnight to 3 am talking about Malcolm's changes to another persons post.
Malcolm is my friend and I thought a mistake may have been made during high emotions.
It was felt that its possible but the only one who knows his heart when the edits were made is Malcolm.
His mod status was not returned which Austin and I have no decision in.
Through all this I tried my best to be fair
and I believe some of you were very inconsiderate of what we have to try and balance without knowing all of your dirty laundry
Let alone during my own life's loss (seems kind of trivial)
Austin handled the soft/post deletion for Sean and Malcolm so that if they want to return, nothing is lost.
Austin also decided to temporally lock their user names / IP address. He said that since it was a public request to leave then it should show that the mods acted.
I agree.
The election
Because everyone would like their choice for prez to win and because there are only 2 candidates,
we have a 50/50 split and everyone tried to campaign louder then the next guy.
During this time there was some name calling, character stomping
and at the end of the day Austin and I had everyone's dirty laundry thrown all over the place.
Austin and I don't know and dont want to know how your shorts got soiled and why your nickers are in a knot.
We just have to keep the floor clear so that the regulars dont trip on it or in some cases have to see your dirt
You all should try to remember that these are real people with real families.
They have lives and problems that you may not know the extent of.
It is very hard to see someone's body language or see that they may be drinking a beer
and laughing as they post something and had no idea that you would take offense to it.
Well thats my 2 cents.
My name is Brad, I am not an alcoholic,
but I am 1 of the mods at the 928 Owners Club, at least for now, and I am a volunteer.
Have a Great 928 Day!
Last edited by 928mac; 09-03-2012 at 06:11 PM. Reason: corrected grammer
09-03-2012, 03:45 PM
#170
09-03-2012, 05:33 PM
#171
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In contrary Roger, there was no reason not to take Malcolm's moderator authority away. He had decided to change a post and not mention it. Do we have any way of knowing that he didn't intend to change more? No. What was the disadvantage of taking Malcolm's authority away? NONE, as Malcolm advised he was not doing any moderation prior to that point.
So, after having moderator authority for many months, Malcolm moderated his first post during a contentious election, and the post he edited was of someone whom he already maligned with statements based on nothing but his whim?
As I said, no downside in taking his moderator authority away. Rather than defend his action by explaining what he did, he is only willing to state it was an error. The audacity of Malcolm, he maligns my character with no evidence, but when there is compelling evidence against him he chooses to cut and run.
The recourse would have been for Malcolm to plead his case to the board. He did not. I had two board member's review Malcolm's case, and they both agreed there was no reason to return Malcolm's moderator authority. Since he doesn't moderate, why should he have it? Is it an ego trip, or something else.
As usually you show up to cast aspersion on my character. I have nothing to be vindictive about. I am clearly quite able, and willing, to defend all my decisions and actions to the 928 community. Clearly the handful that have brought such division to the 928 community are those that were silent and uninvolved with the 928 OC functions just 60 days ago.
So, after having moderator authority for many months, Malcolm moderated his first post during a contentious election, and the post he edited was of someone whom he already maligned with statements based on nothing but his whim?
As I said, no downside in taking his moderator authority away. Rather than defend his action by explaining what he did, he is only willing to state it was an error. The audacity of Malcolm, he maligns my character with no evidence, but when there is compelling evidence against him he chooses to cut and run.
The recourse would have been for Malcolm to plead his case to the board. He did not. I had two board member's review Malcolm's case, and they both agreed there was no reason to return Malcolm's moderator authority. Since he doesn't moderate, why should he have it? Is it an ego trip, or something else.
As usually you show up to cast aspersion on my character. I have nothing to be vindictive about. I am clearly quite able, and willing, to defend all my decisions and actions to the 928 community. Clearly the handful that have brought such division to the 928 community are those that were silent and uninvolved with the 928 OC functions just 60 days ago.
Did you or did you not remove Malcolm’s moderator level without the approval of the Board??? Simple yes and no answer.
I have all the Boards emails to prove that you did so please do not lie any more.
Unless there were private emails on the subject of Malcolm between other Board members that I was not aware of then no discussions other than those Malcolm and I were privy to exist.
Please name the other two Board members that reviewed the case? Please tell me why no other Board members were involved in this review. As a current Board member this is exactly the problem I have with you. You take unilateral decisions that only benefit you to the detriment of others. You go behind the Boards back by your own admission to review Malcolm’s case. That in its self should have you removed from your position.
Malcolm was greatly wronged by you Stan Shaw and I can no longer stand by and listen to your reasoning and conniving to justify the decision that YOU made without the Boards involvement or permission.
That Sir is the CRUX of the matter – nothing more or nothing less.
__________________
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014
928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
09-03-2012, 06:04 PM
#172
First, let me say that I do sincerely appreciate all the hard work of Stan, the other Officers, Board, & Committee members of the OC over the years. After being a Fla OC Rep for the past 6-7 yrs, and putting on about 11 events over a 5 yr period, I am fully aware of the amount of effort it can take, and also of how truly thankless it can be. But that is not why we do it.
I have pretty much read about each and every post in both forums for the past few weeks. I feel I need to now make comment of what I see the problem is with how this was handled with Malcolm.
I would suppose that is probably part of Stan's sole authority as the Administrator of the OC web sites to handle things as he did? To make such decisions to remove a moderator? Problem for many is that Malcolm happens to also be an OC Board Member, and coincidentally, he supports the candidate Stan strongly opposes. No matter which candidate someone supports, you simply opened yourself up for scrutiny by the manner in which you handled this Stan.
You say that the proper recourse was for Malcolm to plead his case to the Board, after he was removed by your sole decision to do so. Why would it not be the proper course by you to first run it by the other Board members prior to you taking such a strong action? Unless it is something that the Admin is entrusted to solely do in such matters? If so, that needs to be changed. Also, you say that it didn't matter that you removed him as a moderator because he admitted that he never moderated previously. So all the more reason that you had plenty of time to first to run it by the Board prior to you taking such a strong action against him, especially with it being his very first attempt to moderate(according to your post).
Last I checked in this country, you are innocent before being proven guilty by your peers, & then sentenced to your fate. You don't get sentenced, then get to plead your innocence to the jury. And honestly, even if it is written that you as the Administrator have the sole duty of taking such actions, then why did you have to run it by other Board members after the fact?. Just to get their approval afterwards? And still you do not see how this might possibly look a bit questionable to others on the outside looking in? The possible "appearance of an impropriety" on your part. Whether you acted correctly or not is not really relevant at this point. And all of this is compounded by the fact that you have been the OC President for 9 yrs! That does not give you any pass to handle things the way that you did. To me it should mean that you would know better in your position of so much authority to handle it more correctly to prevent it from looking as it does to some. But you obviously did not care what others would think or how they may view it. You felt it was best to act swiftly as judge and jury & remove a moderator that had yet ever moderated.
None of this would be such a big question or a stink to many if Malcolm supported your candidate, and not support the one you strongly oppose. I mean come on Stan, you've done a great many things for 9 yrs for the OC, but I think if you would have stepped back a minute and thought about it, you could of handled it in a much better way for the overall good of the OC. Remember, you just said that Malcolm admits that he never moderated, and you use that as your reasoning of your actions by saying "what difference does it make?". So I ask then, what difference would it have made to wait to have others review your recommended decision first, prior to passing sentence on him so quickly as you did? Even if it ended in the same results, at least would have prevented it possibly looking to some as though you made a rash decision which might have been tainted by the recent fur flying due to the election.
The "downside" to the way in which you handled this goes way beyond whether Malcolm is a forum moderator or not. It has helped to continue to inflame the OC members, with people taking sides & slinging mud. And if the candidate that you do not support wins, and you step away completely, what legacy does that leave for you after all your hard work for 9 yrs, and what future hurdles does that present for the OC in light of all this recent turmoil? And no, I personally do not need to hear your answer, though I know I will. Do you not realize how your recent actions have the potential to adversely effect your candidate's efforts to replace you? Have you even considered that?
In regards to the overall situation with the transition of the Presidency of the OC & the forum banter, I understand the conflicts. I have served every officer position, and as President in multiple other organizations, one much larger than the OC. With some things you have to be "Presidential", & not respond to every little criticism. No matter how right you feel you are, or need to put your point across. We only need to look at our own nation with the comments of the current administration vs. the previous one to see how that can be handled. I'm sure the previous person would love to take some air time to respond to the mud slung at him for the past four years, yet he has chosen to remain "Presidential" about it & say nothing. And he had nothing to lose, and every right to, should he have chosen to respond every time someone bashed him.
Perhaps since you are now stepping down you feel as though what difference does it make since I won't be the President in a couple of weeks. But it does no one any good, and especially not the organization. Look at the fences that will need mending no matter who replaces you. Even if you don't care about how your legacy will be remembered. With the hurdles that will now have to be overcome, what difference will all of your previous work make if it causes the OC to take ten steps back. The OC may have had a 40% increase in membership the past two years and that is great. But we now risk losing members and potential new members simply from all the turmoil the past few weeks. How much harder will all of the Regional Reps have to work when trying to convince 928ers to join, or remain a member of the OC?
I am only venting my perspective of all of this. I am truly not trying to take sides, except for the future of the OC. I just think its sad, mostly for the OC. But I am confident in both candidates that they have the ability to keep the OC keeping on in support of our great members, all 928 owners, & their cars.
Mel
I have pretty much read about each and every post in both forums for the past few weeks. I feel I need to now make comment of what I see the problem is with how this was handled with Malcolm.
You say that the proper recourse was for Malcolm to plead his case to the Board, after he was removed by your sole decision to do so. Why would it not be the proper course by you to first run it by the other Board members prior to you taking such a strong action? Unless it is something that the Admin is entrusted to solely do in such matters? If so, that needs to be changed. Also, you say that it didn't matter that you removed him as a moderator because he admitted that he never moderated previously. So all the more reason that you had plenty of time to first to run it by the Board prior to you taking such a strong action against him, especially with it being his very first attempt to moderate(according to your post).
Last I checked in this country, you are innocent before being proven guilty by your peers, & then sentenced to your fate. You don't get sentenced, then get to plead your innocence to the jury. And honestly, even if it is written that you as the Administrator have the sole duty of taking such actions, then why did you have to run it by other Board members after the fact?. Just to get their approval afterwards? And still you do not see how this might possibly look a bit questionable to others on the outside looking in? The possible "appearance of an impropriety" on your part. Whether you acted correctly or not is not really relevant at this point. And all of this is compounded by the fact that you have been the OC President for 9 yrs! That does not give you any pass to handle things the way that you did. To me it should mean that you would know better in your position of so much authority to handle it more correctly to prevent it from looking as it does to some. But you obviously did not care what others would think or how they may view it. You felt it was best to act swiftly as judge and jury & remove a moderator that had yet ever moderated.
None of this would be such a big question or a stink to many if Malcolm supported your candidate, and not support the one you strongly oppose. I mean come on Stan, you've done a great many things for 9 yrs for the OC, but I think if you would have stepped back a minute and thought about it, you could of handled it in a much better way for the overall good of the OC. Remember, you just said that Malcolm admits that he never moderated, and you use that as your reasoning of your actions by saying "what difference does it make?". So I ask then, what difference would it have made to wait to have others review your recommended decision first, prior to passing sentence on him so quickly as you did? Even if it ended in the same results, at least would have prevented it possibly looking to some as though you made a rash decision which might have been tainted by the recent fur flying due to the election.
The "downside" to the way in which you handled this goes way beyond whether Malcolm is a forum moderator or not. It has helped to continue to inflame the OC members, with people taking sides & slinging mud. And if the candidate that you do not support wins, and you step away completely, what legacy does that leave for you after all your hard work for 9 yrs, and what future hurdles does that present for the OC in light of all this recent turmoil? And no, I personally do not need to hear your answer, though I know I will. Do you not realize how your recent actions have the potential to adversely effect your candidate's efforts to replace you? Have you even considered that?
In regards to the overall situation with the transition of the Presidency of the OC & the forum banter, I understand the conflicts. I have served every officer position, and as President in multiple other organizations, one much larger than the OC. With some things you have to be "Presidential", & not respond to every little criticism. No matter how right you feel you are, or need to put your point across. We only need to look at our own nation with the comments of the current administration vs. the previous one to see how that can be handled. I'm sure the previous person would love to take some air time to respond to the mud slung at him for the past four years, yet he has chosen to remain "Presidential" about it & say nothing. And he had nothing to lose, and every right to, should he have chosen to respond every time someone bashed him.
Perhaps since you are now stepping down you feel as though what difference does it make since I won't be the President in a couple of weeks. But it does no one any good, and especially not the organization. Look at the fences that will need mending no matter who replaces you. Even if you don't care about how your legacy will be remembered. With the hurdles that will now have to be overcome, what difference will all of your previous work make if it causes the OC to take ten steps back. The OC may have had a 40% increase in membership the past two years and that is great. But we now risk losing members and potential new members simply from all the turmoil the past few weeks. How much harder will all of the Regional Reps have to work when trying to convince 928ers to join, or remain a member of the OC?
I am only venting my perspective of all of this. I am truly not trying to take sides, except for the future of the OC. I just think its sad, mostly for the OC. But I am confident in both candidates that they have the ability to keep the OC keeping on in support of our great members, all 928 owners, & their cars.
Mel
09-03-2012, 06:27 PM
#174
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I would suppose that is probably part of Stan's sole authority as the Administrator of the OC web sites to handle things as he did? To make such decisions to remove a moderator? Problem for many is that Malcolm happens to also be an OC Board Member, and coincidentally, he supports the candidate Stan strongly opposes. No matter which candidate someone supports, you simply opened yourself up for scrutiny by the manner in which you handled this Stan.
You say that the proper recourse was for Malcolm to plead his case to the Board, after he was removed by your sole decision to do so. Why would it not be the proper course by you to first run it by the other Board members prior to you taking such a strong action? Unless it is something that the Admin is entrusted to solely do in such matters? If so, that needs to be changed. Also, you say that it didn't matter that you removed him as a moderator because he admitted that he never moderated previously. So all the more reason that you had plenty of time to first to run it by the Board prior to you taking such a strong action against him, especially with it being his very first attempt to moderate(according to your post).
Last I checked in this country, you are innocent before being proven guilty by your peers, & then sentenced to your fate. You don't get sentenced, then get to plead your innocence to the jury. And honestly, even if it is written that you as the Administrator have the sole duty of taking such actions, then why did you have to run it by other Board members after the fact?. Just to get their approval afterwards? And still you do not see how this might possibly look a bit questionable to others on the outside looking in? The possible "appearance of an impropriety" on your part. Whether you acted correctly or not is not really relevant at this point. And all of this is compounded by the fact that you have been the OC President for 9 yrs! That does not give you any pass to handle things the way that you did. To me it should mean that you would know better in your position of so much authority to handle it more correctly to prevent it from looking as it does to some. But you obviously did not care what others would think or how they may view it. You felt it was best to act swiftly as judge and jury & remove a moderator that had yet ever moderated.
None of this would be such a big question or a stink to many if Malcolm supported your candidate, and not support the one you strongly oppose. I mean come on Stan, you've done a great many things for 9 yrs for the OC, but I think if you would have stepped back a minute and thought about it, you could of handled it in a much better way for the overall good of the OC. Remember, you just said that Malcolm admits that he never moderated, and you use that as your reasoning of your actions by saying "what difference does it make?". So I ask then, what difference would it have made to wait to have others review your recommended decision first, prior to passing sentence on him so quickly as you did? Even if it ended in the same results, at least would have prevented it possibly looking to some as though you made a rash decision which might have been tainted by the recent fur flying due to the election.
The "downside" to the way in which you handled this goes way beyond whether Malcolm is a forum moderator or not. It has helped to continue to inflame the OC members, with people taking sides & slinging mud. And if the candidate that you do not support wins, and you step away completely, what legacy does that leave for you after all your hard work for 9 yrs, and what future hurdles does that present for the OC in light of all this recent turmoil? And no, I personally do not need to hear your answer, though I know I will. Do you not realize how your recent actions have the potential to adversely effect your candidate's efforts to replace you? Have you even considered that?
In regards to the overall situation with the transition of the Presidency of the OC & the forum banter, I understand the conflicts. I have served every officer position, and as President in multiple other organizations, one much larger than the OC. With some things you have to be "Presidential", & not respond to every little criticism. No matter how right you feel you are, or need to put your point across. We only need to look at our own nation with the comments of the current administration vs. the previous one to see how that can be handled. I'm sure the previous person would love to take some air time to respond to the mud slung at him for the past four years, yet he has chosen to remain "Presidential" about it & say nothing. And he had nothing to lose, and every right to, should he have chosen to respond every time someone bashed him.
Perhaps since you are now stepping down you feel as though what difference does it make since I won't be the President in a couple of weeks. But it does no one any good, and especially not the organization. Look at the fences that will need mending no matter who replaces you. Even if you don't care about how your legacy will be remembered. With the hurdles that will now have to be overcome, what difference will all of your previous work make if it causes the OC to take ten steps back. The OC may have had a 40% increase in membership the past two years and that is great. But we now risk losing members and potential new members simply from all the turmoil the past few weeks. How much harder will all of the Regional Reps have to work when trying to convince 928ers to join, or remain a member of the OC?
I am only venting my perspective of all of this. I am truly not trying to take sides, except for the future of the OC. I just think its sad, mostly for the OC. But I am confident in both candidates that they have the ability to keep the OC keeping on in support of our great members, all 928 owners, & their cars.
Mel
You say that the proper recourse was for Malcolm to plead his case to the Board, after he was removed by your sole decision to do so. Why would it not be the proper course by you to first run it by the other Board members prior to you taking such a strong action? Unless it is something that the Admin is entrusted to solely do in such matters? If so, that needs to be changed. Also, you say that it didn't matter that you removed him as a moderator because he admitted that he never moderated previously. So all the more reason that you had plenty of time to first to run it by the Board prior to you taking such a strong action against him, especially with it being his very first attempt to moderate(according to your post).
Last I checked in this country, you are innocent before being proven guilty by your peers, & then sentenced to your fate. You don't get sentenced, then get to plead your innocence to the jury. And honestly, even if it is written that you as the Administrator have the sole duty of taking such actions, then why did you have to run it by other Board members after the fact?. Just to get their approval afterwards? And still you do not see how this might possibly look a bit questionable to others on the outside looking in? The possible "appearance of an impropriety" on your part. Whether you acted correctly or not is not really relevant at this point. And all of this is compounded by the fact that you have been the OC President for 9 yrs! That does not give you any pass to handle things the way that you did. To me it should mean that you would know better in your position of so much authority to handle it more correctly to prevent it from looking as it does to some. But you obviously did not care what others would think or how they may view it. You felt it was best to act swiftly as judge and jury & remove a moderator that had yet ever moderated.
None of this would be such a big question or a stink to many if Malcolm supported your candidate, and not support the one you strongly oppose. I mean come on Stan, you've done a great many things for 9 yrs for the OC, but I think if you would have stepped back a minute and thought about it, you could of handled it in a much better way for the overall good of the OC. Remember, you just said that Malcolm admits that he never moderated, and you use that as your reasoning of your actions by saying "what difference does it make?". So I ask then, what difference would it have made to wait to have others review your recommended decision first, prior to passing sentence on him so quickly as you did? Even if it ended in the same results, at least would have prevented it possibly looking to some as though you made a rash decision which might have been tainted by the recent fur flying due to the election.
The "downside" to the way in which you handled this goes way beyond whether Malcolm is a forum moderator or not. It has helped to continue to inflame the OC members, with people taking sides & slinging mud. And if the candidate that you do not support wins, and you step away completely, what legacy does that leave for you after all your hard work for 9 yrs, and what future hurdles does that present for the OC in light of all this recent turmoil? And no, I personally do not need to hear your answer, though I know I will. Do you not realize how your recent actions have the potential to adversely effect your candidate's efforts to replace you? Have you even considered that?
In regards to the overall situation with the transition of the Presidency of the OC & the forum banter, I understand the conflicts. I have served every officer position, and as President in multiple other organizations, one much larger than the OC. With some things you have to be "Presidential", & not respond to every little criticism. No matter how right you feel you are, or need to put your point across. We only need to look at our own nation with the comments of the current administration vs. the previous one to see how that can be handled. I'm sure the previous person would love to take some air time to respond to the mud slung at him for the past four years, yet he has chosen to remain "Presidential" about it & say nothing. And he had nothing to lose, and every right to, should he have chosen to respond every time someone bashed him.
Perhaps since you are now stepping down you feel as though what difference does it make since I won't be the President in a couple of weeks. But it does no one any good, and especially not the organization. Look at the fences that will need mending no matter who replaces you. Even if you don't care about how your legacy will be remembered. With the hurdles that will now have to be overcome, what difference will all of your previous work make if it causes the OC to take ten steps back. The OC may have had a 40% increase in membership the past two years and that is great. But we now risk losing members and potential new members simply from all the turmoil the past few weeks. How much harder will all of the Regional Reps have to work when trying to convince 928ers to join, or remain a member of the OC?
I am only venting my perspective of all of this. I am truly not trying to take sides, except for the future of the OC. I just think its sad, mostly for the OC. But I am confident in both candidates that they have the ability to keep the OC keeping on in support of our great members, all 928 owners, & their cars.
Mel
09-03-2012, 06:43 PM
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Stan Shaw - So, you throw in the suggestion that I make unilateral decisions. Interesting... Can you name one that the 928 OC board has not authorized me to do? I await your next fictitious statement.
09-03-2012, 07:39 PM
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09-03-2012, 07:43 PM
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Did you or did you not remove Malcolm’s moderator level without the approval of the Board??? Simple yes and no answer.
I have all the Boards emails to prove that you did so please do not lie any more.
Unless there were private emails on the subject of Malcolm between other Board members that I was not aware of then no discussions other than those Malcolm and I were privy to exist.
Please name the other two Board members that reviewed the case? Please tell me why no other Board members were involved in this review. As a current Board member this is exactly the problem I have with you. You take unilateral decisions that only benefit you to the detriment of others. You go behind the Boards back by your own admission to review Malcolm’s case. That in its self should have you removed from your position.
Malcolm was greatly wronged by you Stan Shaw and I can no longer stand by and listen to your reasoning and conniving to justify the decision that YOU made without the Boards involvement or permission.
That Sir is the CRUX of the matter – nothing more or nothing less.
I have all the Boards emails to prove that you did so please do not lie any more.
Unless there were private emails on the subject of Malcolm between other Board members that I was not aware of then no discussions other than those Malcolm and I were privy to exist.
Please name the other two Board members that reviewed the case? Please tell me why no other Board members were involved in this review. As a current Board member this is exactly the problem I have with you. You take unilateral decisions that only benefit you to the detriment of others. You go behind the Boards back by your own admission to review Malcolm’s case. That in its self should have you removed from your position.
Malcolm was greatly wronged by you Stan Shaw and I can no longer stand by and listen to your reasoning and conniving to justify the decision that YOU made without the Boards involvement or permission.
That Sir is the CRUX of the matter – nothing more or nothing less.
The two board members approached me individually requesting more information, so I provided it to them.
I am not going to discuss board business publicly, and clearly you should be in favor of that.
09-03-2012, 07:50 PM
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First, let me say that I do sincerely appreciate all the hard work of Stan, the other Officers, Board, & Committee members of the OC over the years. After being a Fla OC Rep for the past 6-7 yrs, and putting on about 11 events over a 5 yr period, I am fully aware of the amount of effort it can take, and also of how truly thankless it can be. But that is not why we do it.
I have pretty much read about each and every post in both forums for the past few weeks. I feel I need to now make comment of what I see the problem is with how this was handled with Malcolm.
I would suppose that is probably part of Stan's sole authority as the Administrator of the OC web sites to handle things as he did? To make such decisions to remove a moderator? Problem for many is that Malcolm happens to also be an OC Board Member, and coincidentally, he supports the candidate Stan strongly opposes. No matter which candidate someone supports, you simply opened yourself up for scrutiny by the manner in which you handled this Stan.
You say that the proper recourse was for Malcolm to plead his case to the Board, after he was removed by your sole decision to do so. Why would it not be the proper course by you to first run it by the other Board members prior to you taking such a strong action? Unless it is something that the Admin is entrusted to solely do in such matters? If so, that needs to be changed. Also, you say that it didn't matter that you removed him as a moderator because he admitted that he never moderated previously. So all the more reason that you had plenty of time to first to run it by the Board prior to you taking such a strong action against him, especially with it being his very first attempt to moderate(according to your post).
Last I checked in this country, you are innocent before being proven guilty by your peers, & then sentenced to your fate. You don't get sentenced, then get to plead your innocence to the jury. And honestly, even if it is written that you as the Administrator have the sole duty of taking such actions, then why did you have to run it by other Board members after the fact?. Just to get their approval afterwards? And still you do not see how this might possibly look a bit questionable to others on the outside looking in? The possible "appearance of an impropriety" on your part. Whether you acted correctly or not is not really relevant at this point. And all of this is compounded by the fact that you have been the OC President for 9 yrs! That does not give you any pass to handle things the way that you did. To me it should mean that you would know better in your position of so much authority to handle it more correctly to prevent it from looking as it does to some. But you obviously did not care what others would think or how they may view it. You felt it was best to act swiftly as judge and jury & remove a moderator that had yet ever moderated.
None of this would be such a big question or a stink to many if Malcolm supported your candidate, and not support the one you strongly oppose. I mean come on Stan, you've done a great many things for 9 yrs for the OC, but I think if you would have stepped back a minute and thought about it, you could of handled it in a much better way for the overall good of the OC. Remember, you just said that Malcolm admits that he never moderated, and you use that as your reasoning of your actions by saying "what difference does it make?". So I ask then, what difference would it have made to wait to have others review your recommended decision first, prior to passing sentence on him so quickly as you did? Even if it ended in the same results, at least would have prevented it possibly looking to some as though you made a rash decision which might have been tainted by the recent fur flying due to the election.
The "downside" to the way in which you handled this goes way beyond whether Malcolm is a forum moderator or not. It has helped to continue to inflame the OC members, with people taking sides & slinging mud. And if the candidate that you do not support wins, and you step away completely, what legacy does that leave for you after all your hard work for 9 yrs, and what future hurdles does that present for the OC in light of all this recent turmoil? And no, I personally do not need to hear your answer, though I know I will. Do you not realize how your recent actions have the potential to adversely effect your candidate's efforts to replace you? Have you even considered that?
In regards to the overall situation with the transition of the Presidency of the OC & the forum banter, I understand the conflicts. I have served every officer position, and as President in multiple other organizations, one much larger than the OC. With some things you have to be "Presidential", & not respond to every little criticism. No matter how right you feel you are, or need to put your point across. We only need to look at our own nation with the comments of the current administration vs. the previous one to see how that can be handled. I'm sure the previous person would love to take some air time to respond to the mud slung at him for the past four years, yet he has chosen to remain "Presidential" about it & say nothing. And he had nothing to lose, and every right to, should he have chosen to respond every time someone bashed him.
Perhaps since you are now stepping down you feel as though what difference does it make since I won't be the President in a couple of weeks. But it does no one any good, and especially not the organization. Look at the fences that will need mending no matter who replaces you. Even if you don't care about how your legacy will be remembered. With the hurdles that will now have to be overcome, what difference will all of your previous work make if it causes the OC to take ten steps back. The OC may have had a 40% increase in membership the past two years and that is great. But we now risk losing members and potential new members simply from all the turmoil the past few weeks. How much harder will all of the Regional Reps have to work when trying to convince 928ers to join, or remain a member of the OC?
I am only venting my perspective of all of this. I am truly not trying to take sides, except for the future of the OC. I just think its sad, mostly for the OC. But I am confident in both candidates that they have the ability to keep the OC keeping on in support of our great members, all 928 owners, & their cars.
Mel
I have pretty much read about each and every post in both forums for the past few weeks. I feel I need to now make comment of what I see the problem is with how this was handled with Malcolm.
I would suppose that is probably part of Stan's sole authority as the Administrator of the OC web sites to handle things as he did? To make such decisions to remove a moderator? Problem for many is that Malcolm happens to also be an OC Board Member, and coincidentally, he supports the candidate Stan strongly opposes. No matter which candidate someone supports, you simply opened yourself up for scrutiny by the manner in which you handled this Stan.
You say that the proper recourse was for Malcolm to plead his case to the Board, after he was removed by your sole decision to do so. Why would it not be the proper course by you to first run it by the other Board members prior to you taking such a strong action? Unless it is something that the Admin is entrusted to solely do in such matters? If so, that needs to be changed. Also, you say that it didn't matter that you removed him as a moderator because he admitted that he never moderated previously. So all the more reason that you had plenty of time to first to run it by the Board prior to you taking such a strong action against him, especially with it being his very first attempt to moderate(according to your post).
Last I checked in this country, you are innocent before being proven guilty by your peers, & then sentenced to your fate. You don't get sentenced, then get to plead your innocence to the jury. And honestly, even if it is written that you as the Administrator have the sole duty of taking such actions, then why did you have to run it by other Board members after the fact?. Just to get their approval afterwards? And still you do not see how this might possibly look a bit questionable to others on the outside looking in? The possible "appearance of an impropriety" on your part. Whether you acted correctly or not is not really relevant at this point. And all of this is compounded by the fact that you have been the OC President for 9 yrs! That does not give you any pass to handle things the way that you did. To me it should mean that you would know better in your position of so much authority to handle it more correctly to prevent it from looking as it does to some. But you obviously did not care what others would think or how they may view it. You felt it was best to act swiftly as judge and jury & remove a moderator that had yet ever moderated.
None of this would be such a big question or a stink to many if Malcolm supported your candidate, and not support the one you strongly oppose. I mean come on Stan, you've done a great many things for 9 yrs for the OC, but I think if you would have stepped back a minute and thought about it, you could of handled it in a much better way for the overall good of the OC. Remember, you just said that Malcolm admits that he never moderated, and you use that as your reasoning of your actions by saying "what difference does it make?". So I ask then, what difference would it have made to wait to have others review your recommended decision first, prior to passing sentence on him so quickly as you did? Even if it ended in the same results, at least would have prevented it possibly looking to some as though you made a rash decision which might have been tainted by the recent fur flying due to the election.
The "downside" to the way in which you handled this goes way beyond whether Malcolm is a forum moderator or not. It has helped to continue to inflame the OC members, with people taking sides & slinging mud. And if the candidate that you do not support wins, and you step away completely, what legacy does that leave for you after all your hard work for 9 yrs, and what future hurdles does that present for the OC in light of all this recent turmoil? And no, I personally do not need to hear your answer, though I know I will. Do you not realize how your recent actions have the potential to adversely effect your candidate's efforts to replace you? Have you even considered that?
In regards to the overall situation with the transition of the Presidency of the OC & the forum banter, I understand the conflicts. I have served every officer position, and as President in multiple other organizations, one much larger than the OC. With some things you have to be "Presidential", & not respond to every little criticism. No matter how right you feel you are, or need to put your point across. We only need to look at our own nation with the comments of the current administration vs. the previous one to see how that can be handled. I'm sure the previous person would love to take some air time to respond to the mud slung at him for the past four years, yet he has chosen to remain "Presidential" about it & say nothing. And he had nothing to lose, and every right to, should he have chosen to respond every time someone bashed him.
Perhaps since you are now stepping down you feel as though what difference does it make since I won't be the President in a couple of weeks. But it does no one any good, and especially not the organization. Look at the fences that will need mending no matter who replaces you. Even if you don't care about how your legacy will be remembered. With the hurdles that will now have to be overcome, what difference will all of your previous work make if it causes the OC to take ten steps back. The OC may have had a 40% increase in membership the past two years and that is great. But we now risk losing members and potential new members simply from all the turmoil the past few weeks. How much harder will all of the Regional Reps have to work when trying to convince 928ers to join, or remain a member of the OC?
I am only venting my perspective of all of this. I am truly not trying to take sides, except for the future of the OC. I just think its sad, mostly for the OC. But I am confident in both candidates that they have the ability to keep the OC keeping on in support of our great members, all 928 owners, & their cars.
Mel
You are choosing not to recognize that if Malcolm was abusing his authority that waiting put the forum content in peril of being permanently maligned. Waiting to take action could easily have result in Malcolm update many more posts, as his action was taken covertly without advising anyone before or after he made the change.
Your post goes on to repeat. If Malcolm was taking inappropriate actions as it appear he was the time to act was URGENT.
09-03-2012, 07:53 PM
#180
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The board has authorized me to administrate the web forums. I have done so without any question, or even a cause to be questioned for all 9 years when I was president.
Until you found I was not supporting your surprise candidate, the same candidate you pled with me to run against 2 years ago, you never uttered a single complaint.
As president I am authorized by the board to run the day to day functions of the 928 OC, and have been doing so for years, before you were a board member, and you saw this clearly as a board member.
Another transparent deception on your part Roger.
Until you found I was not supporting your surprise candidate, the same candidate you pled with me to run against 2 years ago, you never uttered a single complaint.
As president I am authorized by the board to run the day to day functions of the 928 OC, and have been doing so for years, before you were a board member, and you saw this clearly as a board member.
Another transparent deception on your part Roger.