New Product: Super LSD
06-12-2012, 06:52 PM
#1
Developer
Thread Starter
New Product: Super LSD
This isn't so much a new product as a new application of a well-respected product.
OS Giken has been making their fantastic Super-LSD Limited Slip Differentials for Porsche, BMW, Audi, Mazda, Nissan, and many many more for a long time. All you need to do is Google "OS Giken Differential" to see what the users and magazine editors who have them have to say about them.
Discount for Early Orders
Since i created the adapter kit to put the 8-disk LSD in the late-model transaxles, we cant find good used LSD's fast enough any more. If I had a good used LSD right now, I have at least 10 guys waiting for it.
So - this project comes to mind - if we can't find good used LSD units anymore, why not get brand new ones made? And while we are at it, why not better than OEM?
I have been working with G-Box on the G28/12/13/55 transaxle and the LSD for it, and we have it all nocked out. We have the design, the fitment, everything we need. Our custom OS-Giken diff will fit into our transaxle without any adapters at all. We have it designed as a straight bolt-in.
But to make this happen, I need to order 10 of the Super-LSD's in the initial production run. (After that I can order onsey-twoseys) The problem is that we just dont have the $20,000 laying around to have these made for us in advance. Few do.
But if I can get commitments for 6 of them, I'll take it the rest of the way. We are marketing this LSD for $2250 new right here:
http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/super_lsd.php
...and those first 6 buyers will get it for $1950 in return for their patience. You save $300.00
WHO CAN USE THIS LSD?
1) anybody with a 1987-1991 928 S4 or GT who is tired of waiting for a used LSD to turn up.
2) anybody who is tracking a G28/12, 13. or 55 transaxle.
This LSD is completely street-able, and because of its ability to gradually advance to 100% lockup - it actually runs cooler than the current LSD.
MORE FEATURES
From our webpage: http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/super_lsd.php
SUPER-LOCK LSD for Porsche® 928 Models
Application: Porsche® 928 with 928 G28.12/13/55 Transaxle, found in the 1987-1991 928 S4 and GT models.
928 Motorsports LLC® is proud to announce our partnership with Gbox and OS Giken to make a limited production run of the patented and applauded OS Super-Lock LSD especially for the Porsche 928.
Not a new product: the OS Giken Super-Lock LSD is currently available for the 911, 930, 964, 993 and 996 models; and has already enjoyed more than a decade of success in the most arduous racing environments. This is a new application of a road-and-race proven product.
We selected the most commonly raced transaxle models, the 87-91 5 speed, and commissioned a limited production run of 10 LSD units. They are expected to sell out quickly.
This Limited-Slip Differential is completely street-able, yet has tremendous durability on the track and the smoothest progressions, making it also very easy to drive even at very high HP and Torque levels. And, because it achieves a higher degree (up to 100%) of lock, it generates less friction, making less heat and lasting much longer than ordinary LSD's.
The Super-Lock LSD features an innovative lock-timing system that under low or normal load conditions allows the differential to function as an open differential, however, once load is applied it smoothly transforms into a 100% locking diff (no more issues with turn-in)!
Superior Design
Miniaturized pressure ring and a superior spline-through-side-gear design allows for fitment of more friction plates (up to 2x as many as competitors versions), offering true 100% lock capability.
Patented pressure ring design allows for smooth, progressive locking
LSD case has a relief cut-out for the cone spring, resulting in minimal cone spring degradation and enhanced durability.
Superior Construction
All components are chemically heat treated for maximum durability
All components are constructed from a high-grade steel alloy
Gears are raw-forged for maximum strength
Clutch disks are precision-machined simultaneously on both sides to extremely tight tolerances resulting in minimal warpage.
LSD case is machined from a single billet piece to ensure uniformity.
Superior Overall Performance
The Super-Lock LSD standard spec allows for low preload while still
retaining a fully progressive 100% lock capability; basically, the vehicle will feel like driving on an open diff in slow turns / street driving, but can still transmit maximum power to the drive wheels under load.
Operation is ultra quiet, and the progressive locking allows for smooth, predictable locking. Especially when replacing an open diff, equipping OS LSD will completely improve the driving experience while maintaining everyday drivability.
Due to the precision manufacturing, high-grade materials, and unique design, a break-in period nor rebuild is required. This LSD is purposefully over-engineered to offer the best performing, most durable clutch-type LSD available.
Aside from the performance advantage and stock-like feel at slow speeds, vehicles equipped with the Super-Lock LSD are more stable in all road/weather conditions, allowing for a safer driving experience.
Tunability
Initial torque can be adjusted by using thicker / thinner cone springs
Lock progression timing can be adjusted by using stiffer / weaker pressure ring springs, allowing the progression of full lock to be fine-tuned to the vehicle/driver. Ramp angles can be customized by swapping the pressure ring and iron cross for even more tuning possibilities.
Some SUPER LOCK LSD Advantages:
A true 100% locking LSD: No movement of internal parts means less heat is generated while in operation and less wear of the friction disks. Less initial torque loss and incredible longevity and durability can be realized.
Proven Durability and Reliability: No drop in performance or loss of initial torque, even during long and stressful endurance races.
Straight line stability: During a drag race, our LSD will lock 100% and provide torque equally to each powered wheel. Stable and straight runs will result thus eliminating torque steer in FF applications and lower the chance of drive-shaft breakage.
This is the first time we have ever pre-sold a product or solicited a buy-in to get one made. I'm not sure how this will be received. I hope you can see it is an expensive product, and if we do not form a group so we can get the initial order of 10 done, it will likely never get produced at all.
So, I thought I'd try it this way. I welcome your thoughts and comments.
OS Giken has been making their fantastic Super-LSD Limited Slip Differentials for Porsche, BMW, Audi, Mazda, Nissan, and many many more for a long time. All you need to do is Google "OS Giken Differential" to see what the users and magazine editors who have them have to say about them.
Discount for Early Orders
Since i created the adapter kit to put the 8-disk LSD in the late-model transaxles, we cant find good used LSD's fast enough any more. If I had a good used LSD right now, I have at least 10 guys waiting for it.
So - this project comes to mind - if we can't find good used LSD units anymore, why not get brand new ones made? And while we are at it, why not better than OEM?
I have been working with G-Box on the G28/12/13/55 transaxle and the LSD for it, and we have it all nocked out. We have the design, the fitment, everything we need. Our custom OS-Giken diff will fit into our transaxle without any adapters at all. We have it designed as a straight bolt-in.
But to make this happen, I need to order 10 of the Super-LSD's in the initial production run. (After that I can order onsey-twoseys) The problem is that we just dont have the $20,000 laying around to have these made for us in advance. Few do.
But if I can get commitments for 6 of them, I'll take it the rest of the way. We are marketing this LSD for $2250 new right here:
http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/super_lsd.php
...and those first 6 buyers will get it for $1950 in return for their patience. You save $300.00
WHO CAN USE THIS LSD?
1) anybody with a 1987-1991 928 S4 or GT who is tired of waiting for a used LSD to turn up.
2) anybody who is tracking a G28/12, 13. or 55 transaxle.
This LSD is completely street-able, and because of its ability to gradually advance to 100% lockup - it actually runs cooler than the current LSD.
MORE FEATURES
From our webpage: http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/super_lsd.php
SUPER-LOCK LSD for Porsche® 928 Models
Application: Porsche® 928 with 928 G28.12/13/55 Transaxle, found in the 1987-1991 928 S4 and GT models.
928 Motorsports LLC® is proud to announce our partnership with Gbox and OS Giken to make a limited production run of the patented and applauded OS Super-Lock LSD especially for the Porsche 928.
Not a new product: the OS Giken Super-Lock LSD is currently available for the 911, 930, 964, 993 and 996 models; and has already enjoyed more than a decade of success in the most arduous racing environments. This is a new application of a road-and-race proven product.
We selected the most commonly raced transaxle models, the 87-91 5 speed, and commissioned a limited production run of 10 LSD units. They are expected to sell out quickly.
This Limited-Slip Differential is completely street-able, yet has tremendous durability on the track and the smoothest progressions, making it also very easy to drive even at very high HP and Torque levels. And, because it achieves a higher degree (up to 100%) of lock, it generates less friction, making less heat and lasting much longer than ordinary LSD's.
The Super-Lock LSD features an innovative lock-timing system that under low or normal load conditions allows the differential to function as an open differential, however, once load is applied it smoothly transforms into a 100% locking diff (no more issues with turn-in)!
Superior Design
Miniaturized pressure ring and a superior spline-through-side-gear design allows for fitment of more friction plates (up to 2x as many as competitors versions), offering true 100% lock capability.
Patented pressure ring design allows for smooth, progressive locking
LSD case has a relief cut-out for the cone spring, resulting in minimal cone spring degradation and enhanced durability.
Superior Construction
All components are chemically heat treated for maximum durability
All components are constructed from a high-grade steel alloy
Gears are raw-forged for maximum strength
Clutch disks are precision-machined simultaneously on both sides to extremely tight tolerances resulting in minimal warpage.
LSD case is machined from a single billet piece to ensure uniformity.
Superior Overall Performance
The Super-Lock LSD standard spec allows for low preload while still
retaining a fully progressive 100% lock capability; basically, the vehicle will feel like driving on an open diff in slow turns / street driving, but can still transmit maximum power to the drive wheels under load.
Operation is ultra quiet, and the progressive locking allows for smooth, predictable locking. Especially when replacing an open diff, equipping OS LSD will completely improve the driving experience while maintaining everyday drivability.
Due to the precision manufacturing, high-grade materials, and unique design, a break-in period nor rebuild is required. This LSD is purposefully over-engineered to offer the best performing, most durable clutch-type LSD available.
Aside from the performance advantage and stock-like feel at slow speeds, vehicles equipped with the Super-Lock LSD are more stable in all road/weather conditions, allowing for a safer driving experience.
Tunability
Initial torque can be adjusted by using thicker / thinner cone springs
Lock progression timing can be adjusted by using stiffer / weaker pressure ring springs, allowing the progression of full lock to be fine-tuned to the vehicle/driver. Ramp angles can be customized by swapping the pressure ring and iron cross for even more tuning possibilities.
Some SUPER LOCK LSD Advantages:
A true 100% locking LSD: No movement of internal parts means less heat is generated while in operation and less wear of the friction disks. Less initial torque loss and incredible longevity and durability can be realized.
Proven Durability and Reliability: No drop in performance or loss of initial torque, even during long and stressful endurance races.
Straight line stability: During a drag race, our LSD will lock 100% and provide torque equally to each powered wheel. Stable and straight runs will result thus eliminating torque steer in FF applications and lower the chance of drive-shaft breakage.
This is the first time we have ever pre-sold a product or solicited a buy-in to get one made. I'm not sure how this will be received. I hope you can see it is an expensive product, and if we do not form a group so we can get the initial order of 10 done, it will likely never get produced at all.
So, I thought I'd try it this way. I welcome your thoughts and comments.
06-12-2012, 07:19 PM
#2
Inventor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Nice looking piece!
'83-'89 LSD unit is dimensionally the same, autos and manuals.
'83-'84 are 8-disk
'85-'89 are 4-disk
('85 service bulletin)
1) anybody with a 1987-1991 928 S4 or GT who is tired of waiting for a used LSD to turn up.
2) anybody who is tracking a G28/12, 13. or 55 transaxle.
2) anybody who is tracking a G28/12, 13. or 55 transaxle.
'83-'84 are 8-disk
'85-'89 are 4-disk
('85 service bulletin)
06-12-2012, 09:15 PM
#5
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Happy Birthday to the 928 community!!!
Trending Topics
06-12-2012, 11:29 PM
#8
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Very cool. I'm not familiar with anyone in the Porsche "race" world running this "brand" limited slip, but it sure looks good, in theory. The "Porsche Factory" limited slips virtually all broke their cases (up to just a few years ago)...right where the ring gear bolts on. The only solution that would last was to build the housings out of chrome moly. I see no mention of the material used, just that it is billet. Are they using chrome moly for the cases, like Porsche (and Guard). Certainly, the torque of the 928 engine is going to play hell on anything less.
I've talked to Guard about doing this same thing, but the costs were just too high, for the 928 crowd.
It will be interesting to see how the "pay now and get the product someday" tactic works. Several other 928 vendors took this approach, just prior to going out of business. I'm not sure how many people lost money, in these prior "scams"....or if those people are still around to tell about it....but there were many 928 people that lost their money.
Before you guys get all pissy that I'm "picking" on Carl......I'm not. I'm not suggesting that Carl, with his renowned track record of business dealings would do anything like this. It just will be interesting to see how good the memory of the 928 world is and how "gun shy" that world is.
One small point, which stuck out to me, like a sore thumb. Understand that I'm easy to confuse and not very well "versed" in the English language (so I might be misunderstanding what is written here,) but if you have at least 10 people standing in line for a limited slip, shouldn't you already have the first 10 sold? That really confused me. Why would one need to be out "hunting" for "pre-paid" customers, if you already had that many customers, standing in line?
I didn't see any mention of the ETA of this product. I'd like to get one to test, if the case is, indeed, chrome moly.
If I pay for a unit, when would I expect to see it?
Keep up the good work, Carl!
I've talked to Guard about doing this same thing, but the costs were just too high, for the 928 crowd.
It will be interesting to see how the "pay now and get the product someday" tactic works. Several other 928 vendors took this approach, just prior to going out of business. I'm not sure how many people lost money, in these prior "scams"....or if those people are still around to tell about it....but there were many 928 people that lost their money.
Before you guys get all pissy that I'm "picking" on Carl......I'm not. I'm not suggesting that Carl, with his renowned track record of business dealings would do anything like this. It just will be interesting to see how good the memory of the 928 world is and how "gun shy" that world is.
One small point, which stuck out to me, like a sore thumb. Understand that I'm easy to confuse and not very well "versed" in the English language (so I might be misunderstanding what is written here,) but if you have at least 10 people standing in line for a limited slip, shouldn't you already have the first 10 sold? That really confused me. Why would one need to be out "hunting" for "pre-paid" customers, if you already had that many customers, standing in line?
I didn't see any mention of the ETA of this product. I'd like to get one to test, if the case is, indeed, chrome moly.
If I pay for a unit, when would I expect to see it?
Keep up the good work, Carl!
__________________
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
Last edited by GregBBRD; 06-12-2012 at 11:44 PM.
06-13-2012, 12:11 AM
#9
Rennlist Member
Greg,
I think he is saying that if he could get used LSD's he would be able to sell about 10 straight off (although waiting lists being what they are not all of these people may actually come through if the used LSD's were to suddenly become available).
Looks like a good potential upgrade to those on the race circuit.
I appreciate those who are prepared to invest in the development of the 928 even though it is most unlikely I will ever be able to afford any of these upgrades.
Myles
I think he is saying that if he could get used LSD's he would be able to sell about 10 straight off (although waiting lists being what they are not all of these people may actually come through if the used LSD's were to suddenly become available).
Looks like a good potential upgrade to those on the race circuit.
I appreciate those who are prepared to invest in the development of the 928 even though it is most unlikely I will ever be able to afford any of these upgrades.
Myles
Last edited by 928Myles; 06-13-2012 at 12:14 AM. Reason: quote didn't show
06-13-2012, 12:23 AM
#10
Nordschleife Master
On 'Gearz' with Stacy David, he installed a 997 gear box/TA in an SLC kit car with this LSD unit. It is mated to an LS7. Oddly, to me anyway, is that the 997 box/ta was configured to be installed upside down. He also showed a cutaway of the LSD and its many friction discs and configurability. Pretty cool stuff.
06-13-2012, 12:28 AM
#11
Nordschleife Master
Link
http://staceydavid.com/projects/sl-c
06-13-2012, 01:09 AM
#12
Rennlist Member
Hello.
This brand of differential has been used in a number of G-50 based gear boxes over the years. It is certainly superior to Guard's stuff and really is among the finest units made. They used to use a similar product to 4130 in their manufacturing, but I believe they also use 4340 or derivative of it. I doubt a finer product will ever be made for the gearbox of a 928. I thank Carl for doing this as they have to cost nearly $1500ea in a 10 count. Hard to make a buck. Kind of like Gregs cranks. Beautiful parts, just no profit in them. Keep up the good work guys. I don't see Carl going out of business. Wish I had the money for one, honestly.
Thank you
This brand of differential has been used in a number of G-50 based gear boxes over the years. It is certainly superior to Guard's stuff and really is among the finest units made. They used to use a similar product to 4130 in their manufacturing, but I believe they also use 4340 or derivative of it. I doubt a finer product will ever be made for the gearbox of a 928. I thank Carl for doing this as they have to cost nearly $1500ea in a 10 count. Hard to make a buck. Kind of like Gregs cranks. Beautiful parts, just no profit in them. Keep up the good work guys. I don't see Carl going out of business. Wish I had the money for one, honestly.
Thank you
06-13-2012, 11:06 AM
#14
Developer
Thread Starter
were there any discussions about lubricants, and the compatability between what is recommended in the 928 vs what is recommended in these LSD's?
06-13-2012, 11:46 AM
#15
Developer
Thread Starter
As to Greg's comments: I agree. I too have seen what looks like a Ponzi scheme of taking money in advance of a special order product, and then the customer never somehow ends up with their item.
I have made public my dislike for "group buys" and taking deposits prior to a products release several times on this forum before. We have never done it and I am reluctant to do it now.
That being said, if I don't KNOW that the first 6 are sold, I cannot afford to have the first 10 made.
And that's what requires a payment when you order. It tends to separate the talkers from those that are serious about it.
If it doesn't work (if I cannot find at least 6 serious buyers) I can kill this project now and the only one who has lost money is me. I have my time and costs to get to this point, and now we are ready to manufacture them. I can still stop. Those who will have paid will get their money refunded.
As to delivery date, I have been told to expect 4-6 months from the date I place my order (payment in full required by OS Giken in advance (sound familiar?). The time is to make our special forging for the 928 carrier, make the parts, and test them before making the complete production run of 10. I have provided them one of my G28/13 boxes for fitment.
I have made public my dislike for "group buys" and taking deposits prior to a products release several times on this forum before. We have never done it and I am reluctant to do it now.
That being said, if I don't KNOW that the first 6 are sold, I cannot afford to have the first 10 made.
And that's what requires a payment when you order. It tends to separate the talkers from those that are serious about it.
If it doesn't work (if I cannot find at least 6 serious buyers) I can kill this project now and the only one who has lost money is me. I have my time and costs to get to this point, and now we are ready to manufacture them. I can still stop. Those who will have paid will get their money refunded.
As to delivery date, I have been told to expect 4-6 months from the date I place my order (payment in full required by OS Giken in advance (sound familiar?). The time is to make our special forging for the 928 carrier, make the parts, and test them before making the complete production run of 10. I have provided them one of my G28/13 boxes for fitment.