17prospective buyer

I know it's possible to run meth/water injection on the stock intake and MAF setup. The nozzles would need to go right after the filter using the lower airbox.

Where would the nozzle(s) (or 2 smaller nozzles for homogenous mixture) need to be located to provide a homogenous mixture that won't give the MAF an inaccurate voltage signal? It would be easier with a speed density air metering system (MAP) since you could locate the nozzles virtually anywhere in the intake stream you want.

killav

I drilled a hole and mounted the nozzle as low as I could in the MAF without geting in the way of the boot. I basically wanted to get the spray as far down in the MAF (away from the hot wire) as I could.

I have been running water/meth for 8 months now with zero issues.

Just FYI, adding the water meth did virtually nothing for power. I had to back out some fuel under boost and increase the timing to see much of a difference. Not sure if your planning for boost, but you will need a sharktuner to see any benfit, and if not going forced induction, the benefits are small on a N.A. motor.

17prospective buyer

Yeah but... that's the thing. Are you saying you mounted the nozzle right after the MAF?? For the ECU to actually see the effect of water/meth in the airstream it must be injected before the MAF no? Unless you manually tune it.

I plan to supercharge my 87 eventually, i'll be saving up for it. However, i was hoping i could make considerable gains with alot of advance. Could run a higher CR too if i wanted to take the heads off.

killav

The hole is drilled in actual MAF past the wire. I am using it as a chemical intercooler. It works as intended spraying in this location. As you elude to, spraying anything on the wire will damage the MAF and cause innacurrate readings to the LH computer.

You only want the MAF measuring airlfow not fuel. The wideband (when sharktuning) will pick up on the extra "fuel" from the 51/49 percent mixture of water/meth.....hope this make sense.

blown 87

Do a search for Pete Law and also some of the NACA papers done before WW2 and during, it was shocking how much power they got out using water injection, and also how much they actually used.

17prospective buyer

Well, i think significant gains can be made with water/meth injection on the stock CR but even more so if i were to shave my heads to raise the static CR to 11 or 12:1.

I did find an article on water/meth injection. I think it may be Peter Laws research. The key in a naturally aspirated application will of course be using ignition advance to increase power. How much will the stock LH system advance timing provided the LH Jetronic inputs react to the mixture of meth/water injected? I thought to make the ECU "see" the meth/water being injected, it must be a homogenous mixture before the MAF.

I imagine the gains would be more significant if a speed density system were used (MAP sensor in conjuction with IAT sensor), but... can't do that without spending money on a stand-alone system or totally new engine management system.

Could custom dyno tuning to build in the anticipated amount of advance that could be used be the answer?

123quattro

You will see very little benefit on a naturally aspirated engine. Maybe 5-10whp max. New cylinder heads, relatively new in the 928 case, are much less prone to knock so factory timing is much more advanced vs old crappy stuff.

Either way, you do not want to injector pre-MAF. You will certainly destroy it. Inject anywhere post MAF, preferably as far away from the plenum as possible.

brutus

Actually.."How much will the stock LH system advance timing " the system will ONLY retard timing if it detects knocks. For more advance you must have custom chips/shark tuning or as you mentioned complete aftermarket engine management.

SQLGuy

Actually, neither. LH only does fuel. EZK does ignition, and will retard timing based on knock sensors, inop cam sensor, coding plug, and "electronic octane" settting.

killav

I modified my coding plug for the EZK by running wires to a three position toggle switch and now have three different timing map to choose from. The wires also run to a yellow (retarded), green (normal), and red (advanced) LED's in my tray under the steering wheel so I can visually see what map I am using.....

h011yw00d

For those of us that are ignorant (like me). From the Mopar forum:

Everything you need to know about Water/Methanol Injection!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well almost everything...
I figured I would post up some info on this topic since there have been several threads about it, and we have gotten alot of questions as well. In addition, we spent a few days with Dan and Mike from Labonte Motorsports Water Methanol Injection a few weeks ago so we have even more info than ever.

The information contained here is from a variety of sources including our personal experiences installing and running these kits on various applications for years, Labonte Motorsports, Snow Performance, and others.

Why Water Methanol Injection?
In gasoline engines, as with any intercooler, this suppresses detonation so more power producing boost and timing can be utilized. Water, with its high latent heat of vaporization cools the intake charge and combustion. Methanol cools the charge and combustion but also acts like an extremely high octane fuel (some researchers claim as high as 120 octane) as well as adding more oxygen to combustion.

In diesels, the effect is three fold: 1. The intercooling effect provides for more available air and all the benefits of a higher positive pressure ratio (more power giving fuel can be utilized safely without high combustion temperatures). 2. The combustion of water provides for more power on the power stroke. 3. Methanol acts as an additional fuel for more power.

A brief History:
Water injection was evaluated scientifically in the 1930.s by H. Ricardo who demonstrated that one can basically double the power output of an engine using water/methanol. The first widespread use was during WWII on supercharged and turbocharged aircraft. In 1942, the German Luftwaffe increased the horsepower of the Focke-Wulf 190D-9 fighter aircraft from 1776HP to 2240HP using 50/50% water/methanol injection. The allies soon followed by fitting the P51 Mustang and other high performance aircraft with water/methanol injection. Following the war, the turboprop aircraft industry used water/methanol injection and called it the "automatic power reserve system (APR)" for use in hot or high altitude take off. It surfaced again in the 60's when GM used a system on the OEM turbo Corvair. It was used effectively in Formula 1 before being banned for adding too much power.

In recent years, water methanol injection has become ever more popular and recognized as an invaluable tool for both gasoline and diesel forced induction engines as well as naturally aspirated applications. While often times referred to as a “chemical intercooler” it is more commonly used in forced induction applications due to it’s substantial cooling effects and added octane increase it adds to pump gas. Reducing air intake charge temperatures by 50-200+ degrees F almost instantly. Providing a substantially cooler denser air charge for a greater expansion of power within the combustion chamber. While also largely eliminating the problem of engine “knocking” and allowing user to run higher levels of boost, compression and increased timing.

As mentioned already. Water methanol injection has also become a tried-and-true proven way for users to effectively increase their 87-93 octane pump gas. Depending on the amount injected, gains up to 10-20+ points in octane can be achieved. Thus, making 91 octane pump gas act like 105-116 octane racing fuel in their engines. Thereby eliminating our dependency for notoriously expensive racing fuels, which can cost upwards of $8.00-$12.00 per gallon, as so many of us have reluctantly had to use in the past. Costing only pennies to operate when using 100% water, its also a far more effective, affordable and convenient of a solution to those expensive octane booster fuel additives as well.


What types of fluids can I use?

Water and various grains of alcohol, methanol, ethanol and isopropanol, are the primary fluids which are commonly used in a water alcohol injection systems. Depending on the application, we have found mixtures of 40/60 water and methanol to perform the best without the risk of being a flammable fluid. This surprises many the first time they hear it. When injected properly into the air charge of an engine, water and water alone, is a remarkable detonation suppressant. The most notable advantages of using water injection is it's inability to detonate as well as it's substantial cooling effect it has on air charge temperatures, combustion temperatures and exhaust gas temperatures. Best of all...it's basically free. Water has a high latent heat of vaporization. Approximately, 8 times that of gasoline and can reduce intake charge temperatures by 50-150+ degrees F on supercharged and turbocharged engines almost instantly when sprayed properly. It’s also an extremely effective octane booster. Since water does not burn “per‘ say, when atomized properly with pump gas, it will effectively increase the fuels octane. Doing so, by improving the fuels ability to resist self-ignition under higher cylinder pressures and hotter cylinder temperatures thus suppressing detonation.

The easiest fluid to use is a non detergent blue windshield washer fluid…this will contain water and methanol!

Through testing and research, comparing high-octane fuels vs. 87-93 octane pump gas combined with 100% water injection (no alcohol mix added). Depending on the build of the motor and volume injected, it is estimated octane increases of 10-20+ points can be achieved by using 100% water injection with 87-93 octane gas. This is after evaluating maximum allowable total timing advance and maximum attainable boost levels with out detonation or pre-ignition.

Benefits of Water Alcohol/Methanol Injection on NA application:

Lower air charge temperatures by 30-40 degree's
Reduces cylinder temperatures by 200+ degrees
Increase your 87-93 pump gas by 10-15+ points
Allows the use of lower grades fuels
Allows you to safely run more timing
Cools and protects the tops of your pistons
Longer more stable combustion expansion and progression
Removes carbon build up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves
Reduces & helps eliminate damaging engine detonation & pre-ignition
No need for expensive racing fuel or additives

Benefits of Water Methanol Injection on Forced Induction Application:

Lower air temperatures by 50-250+ degrees
Reduces cylinder temperatures by 200+ degrees
Reduce EGT's by up to 250+ degree's
Allows you to safely run more boost and timing
Removes carbon build up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves.

For our Hemi cars I see the benefits being HUGE. For the N/A cars heat soak and high intake air temps rob our cars of power. Running Water/Meth will cool these temps immensely which should help with that issue. Think about it this way…how does your car run when air temps are 50 degrees and IAT's are low vs when it is 90 degrees and IAT's are high.

Another benefit is the ability to tune and add more timing as you would if running race gas but without the expense of race gas. There are also huge benefits for cars running boost from Superchargers or Turbos. Now that we have a lot of options coming this will be a must have. These kits will reduce the intake temps and allow more boost and timing to be run safely..

17prospective buyer

So... the only way to properly run the amount of advance that will gain power with meth/water injection is either standalone systems or calculating the max amount of advance and using that data to make a custom chip?

jorj7

Or get some PEMs and a Sharktuner, http://www.jdsporsche.com/ , for sale by a few vendors stateside.

I did water/methanol injection. I made a drilled plug for the MAF boot, and put the nozzle there. I also have
a nozzle in front of the supercharger.

http://928.jorj7.com/meth-inj/