central locking button
11-09-2012, 03:11 AM
#31
Nordschleife Master
Okay, here is the BIGGEST challenge yet to this problem.
With the car OFF, the light switch is turned to power on the parking lights. When this happens, the lock panel button is also powered on and works. There is no key in the ignition and no engine running. What kind of an electrical gremlin is this?
Of course the central lock button only works in the "open" position, as indicated earlier in this thread. Nevertheless, I thought this new problem might be related in some way.
Tell me I am not the only one this has ever happened to...
With the car OFF, the light switch is turned to power on the parking lights. When this happens, the lock panel button is also powered on and works. There is no key in the ignition and no engine running. What kind of an electrical gremlin is this?
Of course the central lock button only works in the "open" position, as indicated earlier in this thread. Nevertheless, I thought this new problem might be related in some way.
Tell me I am not the only one this has ever happened to...
I've gone through this thread and I will start with this question, has the car ever had an aftermarket alarm/remote door opener installed (and even partially removed) to your knowledge at any point in its history ?
I ask this for, as you stated above, when you turn the headlight switch on the Locking Button light illuminates and the central locking system functions with NO KEY in the ignition. This tells me the system is deriving power from the 'Black/Blue' illumination system. The 'Black/Blue' illumination system is named for the color of the wires that illuminate all bulbs in the dashboard (not the warning lights), the pod switches, the clock, the HVAC unit, and the cigarette lighter. These all go on when you turn the headlight switch to position 1 or 2. The 'Black/Blues' originate from the potentiometer (dimmer switch) under the left hand side of the pod). They are in two bundles - one feeds the pod - the other feeds the center console bulbs.
I ask about the possibility of an aftermarket alarm/remote opener, for the installer may have hacked into the headlight switch wiring (like my PO did) to activate the parking light 'chirping' signal with the remote. The installer may also have 'borrowed' a ground wire that terminates at MP V (MassePunkt V) the ground point above the CE panel. All ground wires on the 928 are brown, and you will find several grounded to this point. MP V shares the grounds for the Central Locking Control Unit, the Central Locking Panel light bulbs, the glove box light, the clock, the AC button bulb, the cigarette lighter, and a few other things.
Notice the commonality between the grounds and the 'power in' from the 'Black/Blues'.
As you've stated above the system functions normally with the LIGHT SWITCH ON. This speaks to a functioning Control Unit. I would check/inspect the function of every bulb and every line in the 'Black/Blue' system. Get in and under and check to see that nothing is hacked in anywhere. Check exposed bulb connections such as the cigarette lighter - this is an attractive tap in point for a power or ground hack. Trace every Brown Wire from MP V to it's origin checking for hacking and integrity. Something is anomalous along these two sets of lines giving you this aberrant behavior. You may have a hack/short between these two systems giving you a ground feedback loop negating normal function, but operating 'normally' only when you turn the light switch on. I've had a similar gremlin that took me quite some time to solve (see my HVAC Circuit Board Question post). Before I solved it, I had to go through much tedium wire by wire. Take your time and be thorough - you will get to its end.
Best Wishes
Craig
Last edited by MainePorsche; 11-09-2012 at 12:25 PM.
11-09-2012, 11:56 AM
#32
Electron Wrangler
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However the central lock button is intended to function partially with the ignition off. In this mode it should not illuminate - but it should lock (and only lock) both doors.
Its a one way trip in this mode for security reasons. Not clear if it works to lock/unlock in this mode in this case or not...
Half the battle of debugging things like this is having any idea what normal behavior is - Porsche did not document it very well.
Alan
11-09-2012, 12:36 PM
#33
Nordschleife Master
The 'hack' could also be to the ignition in the pod, but with the involvement of the light switch activation, I would still think it is to the Black/Blues and/or the ground(s) to MP V.
11-10-2012, 01:01 PM
#34
MainePorsche...
Thank you for the detailed analysis.
To your first question, YES, it did have an aftermarket "something" as I am unable to read Japanese when the "box" was removed. Car was imported from there. This had since been removed some time ago but some hacking may remain, as you say.
To clarify, I indicated the central lock button only works in OPEN mode. The button remains bright lit at all times. Each time it's pushed, it just keeps firing the locks cylinders into the OPEN position. Not sure if this changes your analysis above.
Also, the red LED alarm door indicators always flash when the doors are locked or open so this may be related, I hope.
Any further thoughts please reply. I'll let you know what I find as it may take some time. Thx.
Thank you for the detailed analysis.
To your first question, YES, it did have an aftermarket "something" as I am unable to read Japanese when the "box" was removed. Car was imported from there. This had since been removed some time ago but some hacking may remain, as you say.
To clarify, I indicated the central lock button only works in OPEN mode. The button remains bright lit at all times. Each time it's pushed, it just keeps firing the locks cylinders into the OPEN position. Not sure if this changes your analysis above.
Also, the red LED alarm door indicators always flash when the doors are locked or open so this may be related, I hope.
Any further thoughts please reply. I'll let you know what I find as it may take some time. Thx.
11-10-2012, 01:53 PM
#35
Nordschleife Master
Kevin,
I had a similar situation where the Central Locking button and the door key operation would only result in both door locks only cycling to the OPEN position. I caused this, and this was after I addressed loose door handle latches INSIDE the car. I removed the panel above the armrest to tighten up the linkage, and tightened to much. This excess tension resulted in the locking system cycling to OPEN all the time. After readjusting, I was able to get the locking function, and looseness, corrected. I bring this up for something to consider, especially if you've done anything in the door region recently. It seemed as if it would take only one sides' abnormal tension to cause the cycling to function abnormally. Would be an easy thing to exclude as it relates to the abnormal function. The electronic hack debugging will be a little more labor intensive, especially to your back !
Good Hunting.
Craig
Edit: see attached image. At 5 o'clock to #37 there two nuts involved with the tension of the handle linkage
I had a similar situation where the Central Locking button and the door key operation would only result in both door locks only cycling to the OPEN position. I caused this, and this was after I addressed loose door handle latches INSIDE the car. I removed the panel above the armrest to tighten up the linkage, and tightened to much. This excess tension resulted in the locking system cycling to OPEN all the time. After readjusting, I was able to get the locking function, and looseness, corrected. I bring this up for something to consider, especially if you've done anything in the door region recently. It seemed as if it would take only one sides' abnormal tension to cause the cycling to function abnormally. Would be an easy thing to exclude as it relates to the abnormal function. The electronic hack debugging will be a little more labor intensive, especially to your back !
Good Hunting.
Craig
Edit: see attached image. At 5 o'clock to #37 there two nuts involved with the tension of the handle linkage
11-10-2012, 02:19 PM
#36
Nordschleife Master
MainePorsche...
Thank you for the detailed analysis.
To your first question, YES, it did have an aftermarket "something" as I am unable to read Japanese when the "box" was removed. Car was imported from there. This had since been removed some time ago but some hacking may remain, as you say.
To clarify, I indicated the central lock button only works in OPEN mode. The button remains bright lit at all times. Each time it's pushed, it just keeps firing the locks cylinders into the OPEN position. Not sure if this changes your analysis above.
Also, the red LED alarm door indicators always flash when the doors are locked or open so this may be related, I hope.
Any further thoughts please reply. I'll let you know what I find as it may take some time. Thx.
Thank you for the detailed analysis.
To your first question, YES, it did have an aftermarket "something" as I am unable to read Japanese when the "box" was removed. Car was imported from there. This had since been removed some time ago but some hacking may remain, as you say.
To clarify, I indicated the central lock button only works in OPEN mode. The button remains bright lit at all times. Each time it's pushed, it just keeps firing the locks cylinders into the OPEN position. Not sure if this changes your analysis above.
Also, the red LED alarm door indicators always flash when the doors are locked or open so this may be related, I hope.
Any further thoughts please reply. I'll let you know what I find as it may take some time. Thx.
11-10-2012, 02:30 PM
#37
Craig:
Yes, I agree. More likely some hack issue. The door panel has never been off and no work ever done to the linkage. Unless of course this is one of those chronic 928 issues as there were many.
Thank you,
Kevin
Yes, I agree. More likely some hack issue. The door panel has never been off and no work ever done to the linkage. Unless of course this is one of those chronic 928 issues as there were many.
Thank you,
Kevin
11-15-2012, 10:46 PM
#38
Craig:
NEW UPDATE...
On the driver's side, I was able to locate a factory wire in a harness that leads to T23. It is BR/WH. It has been cut but dead ends where it has been snipped a few inches from T23. There is nowhere I can see on either end of T23 where a portion of the same wire exists that would match.
If I try to follow it through the harness in the other direction it goes deep inside a "main" harness that leads under the gauge cluster. I would have to slice into the factory wrap to make an effort to trace it to its end location.
Any idea if there is suppose to be a BR/WH wire coming from either end of T23 on a MY1990 before I go slicing into the main under dash harness?
Thanks...
Kevin
NEW UPDATE...
On the driver's side, I was able to locate a factory wire in a harness that leads to T23. It is BR/WH. It has been cut but dead ends where it has been snipped a few inches from T23. There is nowhere I can see on either end of T23 where a portion of the same wire exists that would match.
If I try to follow it through the harness in the other direction it goes deep inside a "main" harness that leads under the gauge cluster. I would have to slice into the factory wrap to make an effort to trace it to its end location.
Any idea if there is suppose to be a BR/WH wire coming from either end of T23 on a MY1990 before I go slicing into the main under dash harness?
Thanks...
Kevin
11-16-2012, 12:23 AM
#39
Nordschleife Master
Craig:
NEW UPDATE...
On the driver's side, I was able to locate a factory wire in a harness that leads to T23. It is BR/WH. It has been cut but dead ends where it has been snipped a few inches from T23. There is nowhere I can see on either end of T23 where a portion of the same wire exists that would match.
If I try to follow it through the harness in the other direction it goes deep inside a "main" harness that leads under the gauge cluster. I would have to slice into the factory wrap to make an effort to trace it to its end location.
Any idea if there is suppose to be a BR/WH wire coming from either end of T23 on a MY1990 before I go slicing into the main under dash harness?
Thanks...
Kevin
NEW UPDATE...
On the driver's side, I was able to locate a factory wire in a harness that leads to T23. It is BR/WH. It has been cut but dead ends where it has been snipped a few inches from T23. There is nowhere I can see on either end of T23 where a portion of the same wire exists that would match.
If I try to follow it through the harness in the other direction it goes deep inside a "main" harness that leads under the gauge cluster. I would have to slice into the factory wrap to make an effort to trace it to its end location.
Any idea if there is suppose to be a BR/WH wire coming from either end of T23 on a MY1990 before I go slicing into the main under dash harness?
Thanks...
Kevin
I'm a little confused. How do you know this wire emanates (or as you said leads to) from T23 on the CE Panel ? You say it's been cut a few inches from the T23 socket but your not sure if it was supposed to attach there ? Is T23 without an out going wire ?
T23 gets feed from plug 87a of the Kickdown Relay XVII. This should be power out and feeds a Gray/Brown wire that goes to the solenoid valve.
Maybe you've got BR/WH confused with GR/BR (?)
11-16-2012, 12:37 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
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Not in T23, which is ABS.
I may have missed one, but I see no brown/white wire associated with the central locking system.
Brown/white is a switched ground, with most brown/white wires being associated with the "door open" circuit.
You can check continuity to ground on the cut wire - if there is no continuity to ground with both doors and the hatch closed, and continuity to ground with a door open, you have found your circuit. Now all you have to do is find the other end of the cut wire...
I may have missed one, but I see no brown/white wire associated with the central locking system.
Brown/white is a switched ground, with most brown/white wires being associated with the "door open" circuit.
You can check continuity to ground on the cut wire - if there is no continuity to ground with both doors and the hatch closed, and continuity to ground with a door open, you have found your circuit. Now all you have to do is find the other end of the cut wire...
11-16-2012, 12:49 PM
#41
Wally:
What you say is very interesting. The "T" as you know I am referring to is "Terminal" connection 23. Craig thought I had said CE but I was no where near the CE. I was under the dash on the driver's side at this terminal connection area where I saw the cut BR/WH wire.
Wally please clarify. Are you saying that if this wire is cut the door locks will remain perpetually in the OPEN state? I take it that grounding this wire would not be enough to allow the doors to lock, correct?
MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION: where should the other end of this wire be for the "door open" circuit you describe?
Thanks guys...
What you say is very interesting. The "T" as you know I am referring to is "Terminal" connection 23. Craig thought I had said CE but I was no where near the CE. I was under the dash on the driver's side at this terminal connection area where I saw the cut BR/WH wire.
Wally please clarify. Are you saying that if this wire is cut the door locks will remain perpetually in the OPEN state? I take it that grounding this wire would not be enough to allow the doors to lock, correct?
MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION: where should the other end of this wire be for the "door open" circuit you describe?
Thanks guys...
11-16-2012, 01:00 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Site Sponsor
No - I don't know where the "door open" circuit interfaces with the central locking system.
But - if a door is open, the doors can't be locked, so there must be a connection somewhere. I just don't think it goes thru T23. I have no way to know which wire you are looking at, or where either end is connected. My only suggestion is to get a good flashlight and try to find the other end of the cut wire. The brown/white wires hook to the door switches, the hatch switch, the interior light relay, etc.
It can get really frustrating when you try to repair the damage an ignorant installer causes while putting in an alarm system, remote starting system, audio system, etc.
But - if a door is open, the doors can't be locked, so there must be a connection somewhere. I just don't think it goes thru T23. I have no way to know which wire you are looking at, or where either end is connected. My only suggestion is to get a good flashlight and try to find the other end of the cut wire. The brown/white wires hook to the door switches, the hatch switch, the interior light relay, etc.
It can get really frustrating when you try to repair the damage an ignorant installer causes while putting in an alarm system, remote starting system, audio system, etc.
11-16-2012, 01:53 PM
#43
WAlly:
Agreed that it does not go through T23. It only happened to be coming out of the same wiring harness as the wires that lead to T23 so I thought that might be a hint as to direction.
Your previous comments on what the BR/WH wires do triggered a thought so I began searching the close/open switches and they all have BR/WH wires. Much earlier comments I made, made mention that the LED alarm indicators in the door panel flash continually regardless of the state of the door lock switches. I believe there is a relationship here between these two problems. After all, the alarm system does not work by this constant flashing of the LED alarm indicators.
This made me go to the alarm control unit and I see a BR/WH wire leads into it from CE P24. Now go with me to the Alarm control unit and you will see that the BR/WH then bridges to the additional alarm system control unit. The breach could between these two units. Can you please tell me where this secondary control unit is located? Also, what reason are TWO alarm system control units needed?
Could all this link somehow to the central locking system button working in the open mode only? Just some additional insights to discuss here.
Thanks much...
Agreed that it does not go through T23. It only happened to be coming out of the same wiring harness as the wires that lead to T23 so I thought that might be a hint as to direction.
Your previous comments on what the BR/WH wires do triggered a thought so I began searching the close/open switches and they all have BR/WH wires. Much earlier comments I made, made mention that the LED alarm indicators in the door panel flash continually regardless of the state of the door lock switches. I believe there is a relationship here between these two problems. After all, the alarm system does not work by this constant flashing of the LED alarm indicators.
This made me go to the alarm control unit and I see a BR/WH wire leads into it from CE P24. Now go with me to the Alarm control unit and you will see that the BR/WH then bridges to the additional alarm system control unit. The breach could between these two units. Can you please tell me where this secondary control unit is located? Also, what reason are TWO alarm system control units needed?
Could all this link somehow to the central locking system button working in the open mode only? Just some additional insights to discuss here.
Thanks much...
11-21-2012, 01:19 AM
#44
UPDATE...
I found these two connectors exposed near the CE.
One comes down from center of the body harness just above the CE panel and is a two female pin plastic clear connector (BR/WH and RE/YE). The other looks like a diagnostic type plug (BLACK) with two female pins. This one comes out at the bottom right corner of the CE panel from the main harness (BR and GR/RE).
I would post the photos I took if I could do a simple drag and drop or import from my desktop. If someone wants to provide an email address I can send to that location.
Not sure if these open ended connectors are for diagnostics or should be plugged into something. Please advise.
Thanks...
I found these two connectors exposed near the CE.
One comes down from center of the body harness just above the CE panel and is a two female pin plastic clear connector (BR/WH and RE/YE). The other looks like a diagnostic type plug (BLACK) with two female pins. This one comes out at the bottom right corner of the CE panel from the main harness (BR and GR/RE).
I would post the photos I took if I could do a simple drag and drop or import from my desktop. If someone wants to provide an email address I can send to that location.
Not sure if these open ended connectors are for diagnostics or should be plugged into something. Please advise.
Thanks...
11-21-2012, 01:32 AM
#45
Electron Wrangler
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I think you need to post some pictures of these areas - talking about it is just too ambiguous.
Seems someone has certainly been hacking about.
In general the switched door/interior lights have nothing to do with the alarm/locking... I know that seems odd - but when locked the car is mainly watching for non-alarm unlocking (not the doors opening).
The hood and hatch are more carefully watched for functional behaviour than the doors are ..
I think you need to evaluate the alarm, central locking units and see if there is hacking there also... seems likely...
Alan
Seems someone has certainly been hacking about.
In general the switched door/interior lights have nothing to do with the alarm/locking... I know that seems odd - but when locked the car is mainly watching for non-alarm unlocking (not the doors opening).
The hood and hatch are more carefully watched for functional behaviour than the doors are ..
I think you need to evaluate the alarm, central locking units and see if there is hacking there also... seems likely...
Alan