Timing belt tension readings warm vs cold
#17
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but what you say, makes sense, as the stretch is more determined by the core fibers, where softer rubber at temp will have an influence in the twisting forces resistance
#18
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As an aside, the fact that the 5-8 gear shows less advance than the 1-4 when the engine is hot might be because the cams are not only moving away from the crank, they are also moving away from the water and oil pumps, and each other.
Being farther away from the water pump and the 1-4 gear does nothing to the 5-8, but being farther from the crank and oil pump does advance it a little.
Conversely, everything advances the 1-4, as all of the belt is on the pulled side.
Being farther away from the water pump and the 1-4 gear does nothing to the 5-8, but being farther from the crank and oil pump does advance it a little.
Conversely, everything advances the 1-4, as all of the belt is on the pulled side.
As MK is pretty much just talking to himself, again, I'll continue talking, to myself.
This was a bit of a revelation, to me, when my fingers typed it yesterday.
Because the 928 timing belt is not actively managed, elasticity/stretch in the belt is used as a reserve, plus or minus, of overall belt length, independent of the detensioning system, with the goal of ensuring that there is never enough loose belt to jump teeth at the crank, or the cam gear(s).
Too much belt is mostly a problem when the engine is cold, but it also occurs at higher rpms, when the belt is pulled taught by the drag of the cams.
The measurement of belt elasticity is tension. This can only be set so high, so as to not cause premature wear, so the belt will be loose if the engine is very cold, or it is run at very high rpm. The guide pulley(s) at the crankshaft are there to try to keep the belt pressed on the gear, even if the belt is loose, but there is no mechanism for the cam gear(s).
With an actively managed belt, where free belt length is controlled as it passes over the tensioner pulley, belt tension can be constant, and on average, lower.
This was a bit of a revelation, to me, when my fingers typed it yesterday.
Because the 928 timing belt is not actively managed, elasticity/stretch in the belt is used as a reserve, plus or minus, of overall belt length, independent of the detensioning system, with the goal of ensuring that there is never enough loose belt to jump teeth at the crank, or the cam gear(s).
Too much belt is mostly a problem when the engine is cold, but it also occurs at higher rpms, when the belt is pulled taught by the drag of the cams.
The measurement of belt elasticity is tension. This can only be set so high, so as to not cause premature wear, so the belt will be loose if the engine is very cold, or it is run at very high rpm. The guide pulley(s) at the crankshaft are there to try to keep the belt pressed on the gear, even if the belt is loose, but there is no mechanism for the cam gear(s).
With an actively managed belt, where free belt length is controlled as it passes over the tensioner pulley, belt tension can be constant, and on average, lower.
Now, show me your actively managed system on a race car over some period of time, and we can talk about reduciing risk of our system now. as it stands today, a well tension 928 belt in the stock system does a pretty good job of keeping tension. doing tesion tests with an old conti vs gates comparison, i saw absolutely no differences and the same amout of tension reading was found at and beyond the spec limits, both with kempf and 9201 tools.
#19
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Before you start, don't give me that tired old line of 'it's not the same on the 928'. It's already been proven to work as well on the 928 (since 2006).
If you read that Gates PDF again, you'll see that a tensioner/damper is recommended for high dynamic forces. The perfect thing for a V8 engine which is running very hot at high rpm, either WOT or coasting.
#20
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Do you think that Audi race cars retrograde to a fixed tensioner?
Before you start, don't give me that tired old line of 'it's not the same on the 928'. It's already been proven to work as well on the 928 (since 2006).
The stock system may appear to keep a somewhat consistent static tension, but you are missing the point. Tension is a symptom. Think past tension to belt control. The belt is being loaded and unloaded all the time, creating more or less loose/unpulled belt on the tensioner side which is not well controlled by the stock system.
If you read that Gates PDF again, you'll see that a tensioner/damper is recommended for high dynamic forces. The perfect thing for a V8 engine which is running very hot at high rpm, either WOT or coasting.
Before you start, don't give me that tired old line of 'it's not the same on the 928'. It's already been proven to work as well on the 928 (since 2006).
The stock system may appear to keep a somewhat consistent static tension, but you are missing the point. Tension is a symptom. Think past tension to belt control. The belt is being loaded and unloaded all the time, creating more or less loose/unpulled belt on the tensioner side which is not well controlled by the stock system.
If you read that Gates PDF again, you'll see that a tensioner/damper is recommended for high dynamic forces. The perfect thing for a V8 engine which is running very hot at high rpm, either WOT or coasting.
audi designed for it in the engine design, we are retrofitting and there is always a chance that we missed something, but after all the stuff you have posted, im starting to believe. maybe it will take me losing some valves before i convert.
at this point, i might actually do it. seriosly. does make a lot of sense, as long as its ENOUGH tension for the quick revs and high revs. thats the issue. the audi isnt the same belt length or the exact configuration, so i worry.
anyone really racing with the system on a 928? not street use, that doesnt count!
#21
Race Car
Have you ever seen a properly tensioned belt with the stock tensioner run on a cold engine with varying RPM as it is warming up sans belt covers? Try it some time and watch how much flapping the belt does, it is very disconcerting.
Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft
Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft
#23
Inventor
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Sigh. Tom, Tom, Tom. Tension is a symptom. As long as the belt stays on the gears, it's golden. Thousands of Lizard miles, and all of my thousands of WOT runs without a hitch shows that it does.
What would be interesting, speaking of Colin, or one of you other kids with COP/CNP ignition, would be to measure with a strobe light or sensor how much the cam timing changes (retards) at different, especially high, rpm, because of belt stretch, so that the static cam timing can be adjusted to suit.
What would be interesting, speaking of Colin, or one of you other kids with COP/CNP ignition, would be to measure with a strobe light or sensor how much the cam timing changes (retards) at different, especially high, rpm, because of belt stretch, so that the static cam timing can be adjusted to suit.
#25
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I would just be concerned that the tension was enough giving the teeth shape and configuration compared to what it was designed for and how it differes during quick throttle blips.
if someone did a 30 min , all out sprint race, that would be convincing to me.
if someone did a 30 min , all out sprint race, that would be convincing to me.
#26
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This is a bit off the actual subject of this thread, but I chatted yesterday with someone who has probably done a hundred timing belt/water pump services in the past 10 years. Asked him how many of the cars actually had OIL in the timing belt tensioner when it was removed for service. He indicated it was probably less than 5% that had any significant oil, with maybe 1 or 2 being nearly full. Vast majority were bone dry!
IF that is the case, the vast majority of 928's are certainly not having the belt tensioned the way the factory intended for it to be!!
Gary Knox
IF that is the case, the vast majority of 928's are certainly not having the belt tensioned the way the factory intended for it to be!!
Gary Knox
#27
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Although average overall belt tension will be lower than stock with a self adjusting Tensioner/Damper; at high rpms, when accelerating, and when the engine is cold, overall belt tension will be higher than stock, keeping the belt better pressed onto the gear teeth (and making for less variations in cam timing).
The T/D piston extends immediately if there is less pressure on it (more belt), but is slow to retract. When accelerating, or at high rpm, when the belt is stretched to it's maximum working tension between all of the gears, free belt on the T/D side is taken up as it passes over the tensioner pulley. If the throttle is suddenly released, the T/D piston is still extended, so belt tension stays higher until the engine revs at a steady state long enough for the T/D piston to retract. (30 sec hot to >1 min cold. It retracts a small distance momentarily to dampen oscillations.)
Some folks have noted a gear whine when accelerating after installing a PKT. This is the sound of the T/D doing it's job, keeping the belt tight(er than stock)!
I think there have been many 'fun runs' all around the country which would qualify. I have been on one or two redline shifting, WOT/brake/WOT/brake, runs which seemed like races, without the passing.
#28
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i race, and I cant even simulare the engine operation. pretty tough to do. so, i understand how it works better now, but still want to see it on a 30 min race with throttle blips to make sure things actually work as they should. there are so many dynamics during a race that i cant even begin to make the list. alll you need to do is get a set up on the race track with someone that knows how to drive and see if it survives. it probably would, but i wouldnt be a ginny pig. what if, just what if, during race conditions you NEED The extra tension?? remember my speed GT race in 'o4, i skipped a few teeth in qualifying only making one decent lap and hobbled home. it was still tentioned properly. so, why did it jump. i think i posted the video too. |BUT, it jumped teeth possibly having more tension than the audi style tensioner. now, the more wrap around position might cure this, but i would like to see it work in a pure racing environment.
#29
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You're almost there. Still have to get past the 'T' word, though.
Belt tension between the 1-4 and crank gears, set when the engine is cold, really doesn't mean a hill of beans once the engine is running. You don't need extra tension when the engine is running at a steady pace. Once you accelerate, with a PKT, the extra belt will be managed as it is 'created' by the strain of the crank turning the cam gears, whereas, with the stock system, the extra belt will just stack up somewhere between the 1-4 and the crank gears.
You skipped, how many teeth exactly? Both cams, same amount?
At high rpm the timing belt does strange things, mostly because it's weight is much higher at speed. For example, take the center cover off and rev it up over 4000 rpm, and you'll start to see the belt come out of the water pump pulley horizontally, farther and farther. Harmonics at different rpm ranges will do strange things to it too.
If you skipped an even number of cam teeth, then it's likely the belt was flapping at just the right frequency to let loose belt reach the crank gear when you let off the throttle. An odd number would mean it was able to creep over the cam gears, also likely when you decelerated.
Belt tension between the 1-4 and crank gears, set when the engine is cold, really doesn't mean a hill of beans once the engine is running. You don't need extra tension when the engine is running at a steady pace. Once you accelerate, with a PKT, the extra belt will be managed as it is 'created' by the strain of the crank turning the cam gears, whereas, with the stock system, the extra belt will just stack up somewhere between the 1-4 and the crank gears.
You skipped, how many teeth exactly? Both cams, same amount?
At high rpm the timing belt does strange things, mostly because it's weight is much higher at speed. For example, take the center cover off and rev it up over 4000 rpm, and you'll start to see the belt come out of the water pump pulley horizontally, farther and farther. Harmonics at different rpm ranges will do strange things to it too.
If you skipped an even number of cam teeth, then it's likely the belt was flapping at just the right frequency to let loose belt reach the crank gear when you let off the throttle. An odd number would mean it was able to creep over the cam gears, also likely when you decelerated.
#30
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Having spent a long time pondering the advisability or not (from a pure theoretical engineering point of view) of using a PKT the above from PK has clarified it in my mind to the extent that I would now fit one.
Total tension required in the belt to maintain enough wrap on the pulleys is probably quite low, so long as that low tension can be maintained when the belt gets very stretched between the crank, 5-8cam, 1-4 cam gears which potentially results in more belt than there is distance between the crank pulley, stock tensioner and 1-4 cam gear; hence using the the stock tensioner, tension has to be set quite high so that some tension still exists on the loose side when accelerating or blipping the throttle.
From what PK says the PKT basically is a spring and a "shock absorber" that has lots of bump damping but no rebound damping - so the spring can extend quickly (uninhibited by the shock) but only compresses slowly. Thus at constant RPM it can have less tension on the belt than the stock tensioner would have and when the undriven side would go nearly slack with the stock tensioner it maintains the same lower tension.
Makes lots of sense all of a sudden and would also negate my concerns over using one of the Gates Racing belts.
Total tension required in the belt to maintain enough wrap on the pulleys is probably quite low, so long as that low tension can be maintained when the belt gets very stretched between the crank, 5-8cam, 1-4 cam gears which potentially results in more belt than there is distance between the crank pulley, stock tensioner and 1-4 cam gear; hence using the the stock tensioner, tension has to be set quite high so that some tension still exists on the loose side when accelerating or blipping the throttle.
From what PK says the PKT basically is a spring and a "shock absorber" that has lots of bump damping but no rebound damping - so the spring can extend quickly (uninhibited by the shock) but only compresses slowly. Thus at constant RPM it can have less tension on the belt than the stock tensioner would have and when the undriven side would go nearly slack with the stock tensioner it maintains the same lower tension.
Makes lots of sense all of a sudden and would also negate my concerns over using one of the Gates Racing belts.