Would you put a kid in an S4?
02-01-2012, 06:03 PM
#91
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I certainly respect your expertise on 928s in general and electrical stuff, but I think you're way off base here, and maybe your family is like that, but not all families are that way.
My kids are very similar when away, as when they are around me. I know because I've had discussions with their friends, some enemies, teachers, coaches, etc. If we do our jobs as parents well, the kids will generally turn out well barring some kind of interference. I know, it's not all nurture, but in my philosophy it's mostly about nurture. If it was all related to nature, and our course was fixed no matter what, why even be a parent? Just pop them out, and let them go like turtles.
In my kids senior HS year we had three deaths in our town from car crashes. Two boys in a truck(natch), and one girl in a Honda something. There were others with injuries as well. My son was a pax in a car that was in an accident and they were in a Buick of all things.
You don't want to put your kids in a 928 that's fine, and I can understand that. But to limit the rest of us to that same limitation based on your situation isn't fair. Some kids can handle it at 16, most can't. It depends. Maybe his kids are ready, we will never know. But I can tell you, it's just as easy to die at 100MPH in a SUV or truck as it is in a 928(with airbags). If my GT didn't have airbags, I prolly wouldn't have done it. Not due to the driver, but due to the limits of the car.
My kids are very similar when away, as when they are around me. I know because I've had discussions with their friends, some enemies, teachers, coaches, etc. If we do our jobs as parents well, the kids will generally turn out well barring some kind of interference. I know, it's not all nurture, but in my philosophy it's mostly about nurture. If it was all related to nature, and our course was fixed no matter what, why even be a parent? Just pop them out, and let them go like turtles.
In my kids senior HS year we had three deaths in our town from car crashes. Two boys in a truck(natch), and one girl in a Honda something. There were others with injuries as well. My son was a pax in a car that was in an accident and they were in a Buick of all things.
You don't want to put your kids in a 928 that's fine, and I can understand that. But to limit the rest of us to that same limitation based on your situation isn't fair. Some kids can handle it at 16, most can't. It depends. Maybe his kids are ready, we will never know. But I can tell you, it's just as easy to die at 100MPH in a SUV or truck as it is in a 928(with airbags). If my GT didn't have airbags, I prolly wouldn't have done it. Not due to the driver, but due to the limits of the car.
I likewise respect your opinions, but I'm solidly with Alan on this. Some kids are known loose cannons. Others are as dependable as the best of us; however, the vast majority are in the middle. Then they are safe, responsible, adult like .... until they are not. It only takes one lapse of judgement. Chance and circumstance certainly come into play, but you're not helping those chances by putting them in the driver's seat of a 300HP former super car. These choices come down to risk vs. reward. For a kid who will (hopefully) have decades of vehicle ownership ahead of them, I don't see the rush to get them into something like a S4.
My dad had a lot of cool cars when I was growing up. When I turned 16 he helped me buy an '83 Buick Regal (that car couldn't pass going up a hill). I was responsible and never had an accident, but I don't hold it against him that he didn't hand me the keys to those cars that I lusted after back then. It made it all the sweeter when I started buying my own cars later in life.
02-01-2012, 06:20 PM
#92
Mr. Anderson let his son buy a 89 928.....but for some reason....it didn't quite have all the power of the stock US version..... (that would be because he sourced an Aussie brain that compensated for lower octane fuel if I remember correctly) 
...
...
02-01-2012, 07:15 PM
#93
Rennlist Member
I certainly respect your expertise on 928s in general and electrical stuff, but I think you're way off base here, and maybe your family is like that, but not all families are that way.
My kids are very similar when away, as when they are around me. I know because I've had discussions with their friends, some enemies, teachers, coaches, etc. If we do our jobs as parents well, the kids will generally turn out well barring some kind of interference. I know, it's not all nurture, but in my philosophy it's mostly about nurture. If it was all related to nature, and our course was fixed no matter what, why even be a parent? Just pop them out, and let them go like turtles.
In my kids senior HS year we had three deaths in our town from car crashes. Two boys in a truck(natch), and one girl in a Honda something. There were others with injuries as well. My son was a pax in a car that was in an accident and they were in a Buick of all things.
You don't want to put your kids in a 928 that's fine, and I can understand that. But to limit the rest of us to that same limitation based on your situation isn't fair. Some kids can handle it at 16, most can't. It depends. Maybe his kids are ready, we will never know. But I can tell you, it's just as easy to die at 100MPH in a SUV or truck as it is in a 928(with airbags). If my GT didn't have airbags, I prolly wouldn't have done it. Not due to the driver, but due to the limits of the car.
My kids are very similar when away, as when they are around me. I know because I've had discussions with their friends, some enemies, teachers, coaches, etc. If we do our jobs as parents well, the kids will generally turn out well barring some kind of interference. I know, it's not all nurture, but in my philosophy it's mostly about nurture. If it was all related to nature, and our course was fixed no matter what, why even be a parent? Just pop them out, and let them go like turtles.
In my kids senior HS year we had three deaths in our town from car crashes. Two boys in a truck(natch), and one girl in a Honda something. There were others with injuries as well. My son was a pax in a car that was in an accident and they were in a Buick of all things.
You don't want to put your kids in a 928 that's fine, and I can understand that. But to limit the rest of us to that same limitation based on your situation isn't fair. Some kids can handle it at 16, most can't. It depends. Maybe his kids are ready, we will never know. But I can tell you, it's just as easy to die at 100MPH in a SUV or truck as it is in a 928(with airbags). If my GT didn't have airbags, I prolly wouldn't have done it. Not due to the driver, but due to the limits of the car.
It does take a parent with lots and lots of patience to truly know their child and how they behave with or without them. I am very fortunate to have a wife with this patience. We do know who she is. This is why I bought her the 944 5 speed with 60,000 miles on it for her 16th birthday. This car is capable of bringing dissapointment from just scratching a wheel on the curb. She parks farther away from others at school then I do at the store. The kids are not the problem. It is the parents in most cases.
I am a little older at 58 with a 16 year old daughter than with my son who is 33. I would not speak the same about him. He has a different mother.
Thomas
02-01-2012, 08:57 PM
#94
Instructor
As the father of 3 sons - the youngest is 19 - I would definitely say NO.
There is a physiological reason related to the brain's "wiring" not yet being complete at this age that results in teen's poor judgement as detailed in a recent National Geographic article (cover story) that can be accessed in this link:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...s/dobbs-text/2
All the best,
Joe
1993 RED GTS
There is a physiological reason related to the brain's "wiring" not yet being complete at this age that results in teen's poor judgement as detailed in a recent National Geographic article (cover story) that can be accessed in this link:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...s/dobbs-text/2
All the best,
Joe
1993 RED GTS
02-01-2012, 09:39 PM
#95
Rennlist Member
No - With three son's 17-20 I wouldn't let them have an S4. They have all damaged two of our cars from not paying attention to what they are doing.
Guess who has done the lions share of work.
Friend at work gave me his 92 Saab 900S, been working on it to get it on the road. It drives nice for 202k on the clock and I will use it to teach the boys how to drive a stick. Has 4 wheel disc brakes, ABS and an airbag.
It will be the 17 year olds car, he just did $4500 damage on our cherry 99 Accord V6 EX Coupe.
My two oldest son's attended SITM with me this year and I did let them drive the S4 with me in the car. They had a good time and have an appreciation for dad's driving skills.
I plan on doing autocrosses with them but with a TR7 not a 928.
Guess who has done the lions share of work.
Friend at work gave me his 92 Saab 900S, been working on it to get it on the road. It drives nice for 202k on the clock and I will use it to teach the boys how to drive a stick. Has 4 wheel disc brakes, ABS and an airbag.
It will be the 17 year olds car, he just did $4500 damage on our cherry 99 Accord V6 EX Coupe.
My two oldest son's attended SITM with me this year and I did let them drive the S4 with me in the car. They had a good time and have an appreciation for dad's driving skills.
I plan on doing autocrosses with them but with a TR7 not a 928.
02-01-2012, 09:42 PM
#96
Rennlist Member
When I got around 15, just before I started rolling the family car out the driveway and starting it down down the block at 03:00, my Dad got rid of the XK-150 (the latest in a long line of self-indulgent, fast cars) and got a Saab 91.
His forsightful sacrifice probably saved my life. I, for one, was not ready. Some nascent skill, but no judgement. I was a danger to myself and others for at least another four years. Learned a lot, though.
I like the ideas of Bondurant, safety school at the track and/or a race car.
His forsightful sacrifice probably saved my life. I, for one, was not ready. Some nascent skill, but no judgement. I was a danger to myself and others for at least another four years. Learned a lot, though.
I like the ideas of Bondurant, safety school at the track and/or a race car.
02-02-2012, 12:11 AM
#97
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I am saying I wouldn't do this - and I'm telling you my strong rationale as to why not. As you can guess there is some previous history behind this - won't go into details. You'll all make your own choices - but do really think it through first...
I work with lots of teenage Boy Scouts - mostly really really great kids, but even the most responsible ones do crazy stuff now & then and not just in cars!
Both my boys started driving on road simulators and in real cars as early as they could - I'm not risk averse - but I do like risk management. They both love cars and will each end up with something interesting I'm sure - maybe they will let me drive them... Then they can drive the GTS.
Alan
02-02-2012, 12:14 AM
#98
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My son is 13, and driving age here is 17, so I have a while to ponder this.
Still, I thought that I would do some research into driving schools, and maybe start him early as a father & son activity.
I found a couple of possible options, and rang my insurer to check on coverage for any damage that might occur during a driver training course.
They told me that:
1) They do NOT cover damage as a result of track activities (even if not racing).
2) They do NOT cover damage as a result of driver training courses.
3)They would INCREASE my insurance premiums if they were advised that any driver of the vehicle had undertaken advanced driver training of ANY kind.
Has anybody else found that insurers don't want people to be better drivers?
Still, I thought that I would do some research into driving schools, and maybe start him early as a father & son activity.
I found a couple of possible options, and rang my insurer to check on coverage for any damage that might occur during a driver training course.
They told me that:
1) They do NOT cover damage as a result of track activities (even if not racing).
2) They do NOT cover damage as a result of driver training courses.
3)They would INCREASE my insurance premiums if they were advised that any driver of the vehicle had undertaken advanced driver training of ANY kind.
Has anybody else found that insurers don't want people to be better drivers?
02-02-2012, 01:26 AM
#99
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02-02-2012, 01:55 AM
#100
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...They told me that:
1) They do NOT cover damage as a result of track activities (even if not racing).
2) They do NOT cover damage as a result of driver training courses.
3)They would INCREASE my insurance premiums if they were advised that any driver of the vehicle had undertaken advanced driver training of ANY kind.
Has anybody else found that insurers don't want people to be better drivers?
1) They do NOT cover damage as a result of track activities (even if not racing).
2) They do NOT cover damage as a result of driver training courses.
3)They would INCREASE my insurance premiums if they were advised that any driver of the vehicle had undertaken advanced driver training of ANY kind.
Has anybody else found that insurers don't want people to be better drivers?
I do have a friend who just a few months after his son getting his license sent him to Bondurant for a teen driving class they do (right here in town) - http://www.bondurant.com/programs/teen-driving-program.
After the class he started driving more aggressively due to his "new skills" & increased confidence & within 2 weeks he had written off his 4 month old new car. So maybe that is their point - I'd say its still useful at the right time - but not too soon...
I did the police advanced/defensive driver training long time ago in the UK - was a great class - but I would not have got much out of it without plenty of experience first.
Anyway it was truly mostly about thinking differently, 360 degree observation, where & what to focus on - really on balance not a whole lot of advanced car control (skid pan & a little track). The part where they make you do commentary on what you see and risks you are evaluating as you drive on the street is truly revealing - especially when a great instructor does it for you and you see the contrast.
They also cover the rear view mirror and quiz you about whats behind you and how close... makes you think.
I do still think lots of early training is very useful but it needs to be appropriate, some of the "3D" immersion simulators are actually very good now, especially for dangerous situation training and they can start this at any age.
I think at a year before they can get a permit start coaching them as you drive - point out crazy drivers, & avoidance, dangerous situations, how to avoid them, trying not to do anything too crazy yourself (slow down - difficult!) , acknowledge mistakes and what you should have done differently, explain the difference between getting ready to pass your test and what it means to drive well (hardly the same thing unfortunately).
Focussed driving time with your learner drivers e.g. with commentary and real skills focus not just general driving around is really good too.
But then they have to go out on their own...
The relatively slowish, good visibility, solid, safe (5 star) Toyota Prius my boys drive already has 3 major dents from the oldest son - who basically has no idea how he managed to do any of them - though he was driving.
The youngest one only just passed his test... They are both capable of being quite good drivers and are generally very responsible kids.
I do expect a few more dents - though of course I hope for none. The dents did however help with a reality reset for the oldest son.
Alan
PS just don't tell them about the advanced training - I won't be...
02-02-2012, 01:57 AM
#101
Three Wheelin'
Since my daughter just turned 4, I have some time to think about this but there are a few things that I am pretty clear on:
1) She will have to make a material financial contribution to the purchase and maintenance costs. I saw too many kids at my high school who were just given new high end cars and did not respect them and either wrote them off in accidents or otherwise destroyed them. I did not appreciate the life lesson at the time while driving a Buick Electra wagon even if it did have certain ergonomic possibilities the other kids 944's, 325e's and Mustang GT's did not.
2) The car will be fitted with a Bluetooth (or equivalent in 12 years) device to block cell phone and texting use
3) She will only be able to have one or two other people in the car with her
4) Mary will get advanced driver training of some type along the lines of Bondurant or Skip Barber prior to being let loose on the roads--this is a cornerstone of my justification to my wife for why we need to join Motorsports Ranch.
5) The car will come with requirements and rules such as keeping up grades, being a good kid etc.
6) The car will be in her name and the insurance will be on a separate policy with a significant liability rider
I am still divided on what kind of car it will be apart from both active and passive safety will be top considerations
1) She will have to make a material financial contribution to the purchase and maintenance costs. I saw too many kids at my high school who were just given new high end cars and did not respect them and either wrote them off in accidents or otherwise destroyed them. I did not appreciate the life lesson at the time while driving a Buick Electra wagon even if it did have certain ergonomic possibilities the other kids 944's, 325e's and Mustang GT's did not.
2) The car will be fitted with a Bluetooth (or equivalent in 12 years) device to block cell phone and texting use
3) She will only be able to have one or two other people in the car with her
4) Mary will get advanced driver training of some type along the lines of Bondurant or Skip Barber prior to being let loose on the roads--this is a cornerstone of my justification to my wife for why we need to join Motorsports Ranch.
5) The car will come with requirements and rules such as keeping up grades, being a good kid etc.
6) The car will be in her name and the insurance will be on a separate policy with a significant liability rider
I am still divided on what kind of car it will be apart from both active and passive safety will be top considerations
Last edited by jsherid1; 02-02-2012 at 02:46 AM.
02-02-2012, 02:33 AM
#102
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I purchased my first Porsche at age 19. It was a 1981 928 Competition Group. Red/Black Manual. The owner I purchased from was a coworker of my father. This was back in 1994. The 928 was in great shape and ran great. I purchased the car in Dallas, Texas and drove the car back home in Tampa, Fl. It was the best road trip ever. But I did get a speeding ticket in a very small Louisiana town that had a small piece of I-49. The funny thing was I was only 5-6MPH over the limit and since it was early morning I was one of the only cars on the road. So you can imagine a young guy in a Red 928 must have been irresistible. And Yes, He gave me a ticket for like $50. Anyway, I was a young guy with a manual 928 and enjoyed owning it very much. I joined the PCA in Tampa and enjoyed testing the car in a number of autocross weekends. Once you have a understanding of a car's limits you can better handle the care and responsibility. And Since I paid for the car and any parts/repairs I was very careful and did not abuse it. In 1998 I purchased my second Porsche a 88' 951 (Red/Black) and still own the 951 today. The 928 was sold in 1999 as I needed a car that could be driven in the Ohio winters.
A combo of PCA Autocross and SCCA and Drivers Ed at Sebring were invaluable learning and helped keep me out of trouble and provided a great outlet to experience the performance/handling/breaking a Porsche was designed to deliver. I never felt I had to prove anything on the road as I was just happy to enjoy the 928/951 without being a crazy idiot on the public roads.
Have a great one,
Kevin
Current:
1988 951
2010 Honda Crosstour
Past Cars:
2000 Audi A4 Quattro
1981 928 Competition Group
A combo of PCA Autocross and SCCA and Drivers Ed at Sebring were invaluable learning and helped keep me out of trouble and provided a great outlet to experience the performance/handling/breaking a Porsche was designed to deliver. I never felt I had to prove anything on the road as I was just happy to enjoy the 928/951 without being a crazy idiot on the public roads.
Have a great one,
Kevin
Current:
1988 951
2010 Honda Crosstour
Past Cars:
2000 Audi A4 Quattro
1981 928 Competition Group
02-02-2012, 12:49 PM
#104
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I can tell some folks have yet to experience their 16 year old, gainfully employed, straight "A" cheerleader daughter coming home fully loaded with adolesence hormones, a new BFF who outweighs a sumo wrestler, has more tattoos than a Georgia truck stop, and more piercings than the loosing side at the Battle of Big Horn.....and try to convince her of anything, much less how many friends she can drive, how she will drive, or anything of any value. I can report having lived through it, she did too, only bent one fender, and in a sense, Karma caught up with her, she has 5 daughters of her own, they are all well behaved, but on ocassion they are also teenagers, the daughter did comment to me the other day "Dad, I did sort of earn this didn't I?".
And yes, we started the education process early on, but adolesence does seem to generate teflon and attitude, if only for a few years....and I do remember the days when "I was 7 feet tall and bulletproof" too. Just don't be really surprised if things turn out a bit differenty than planned....
And yes, we started the education process early on, but adolesence does seem to generate teflon and attitude, if only for a few years....and I do remember the days when "I was 7 feet tall and bulletproof" too. Just don't be really surprised if things turn out a bit differenty than planned....
02-02-2012, 04:33 PM
#105
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I can tell some folks have yet to experience their 16 year old, gainfully employed, straight "A" cheerleader daughter coming home fully loaded with adolesence hormones, a new BFF who outweighs a sumo wrestler, has more tattoos than a Georgia truck stop, and more piercings than the loosing side at the Battle of Big Horn.....and try to convince her of anything, much less how many friends she can drive, how she will drive, or anything of any value. I can report having lived through it, she did too, only bent one fender, and in a sense, Karma caught up with her, she has 5 daughters of her own, they are all well behaved, but on ocassion they are also teenagers, the daughter did comment to me the other day "Dad, I did sort of earn this didn't I?".
And yes, we started the education process early on, but adolesence does seem to generate teflon and attitude, if only for a few years....and I do remember the days when "I was 7 feet tall and bulletproof" too. Just don't be really surprised if things turn out a bit differenty than planned....
And yes, we started the education process early on, but adolesence does seem to generate teflon and attitude, if only for a few years....and I do remember the days when "I was 7 feet tall and bulletproof" too. Just don't be really surprised if things turn out a bit differenty than planned....
Parenting is not 2-4 days a week. It is 7days 24 hours. I know it can turn at any time. And I also know we will catch it when it does.Thanks for your support.
Thomas