Sab

I need some advise where to exactly place my new roll bar.
I just got one of the bolt in roll bars and am not too sure how to place it. When is move it all the way back, it goes right over the round hatch in the floor and I guess that's not a good spot. And there is a bit of room to moove it up and down on the rear fenders as well.
Last question, I got almost 2 inches of space under the roof, as I have no sun roof and interior panels, should I raise it.
Surprised how heavy this thing is... 54lbs...

thanks, Sab

brutus

You are right when located to the rear four of the six floor bolts are attached only to the glued in round plate plus the rear down tubes mount to the rather thin fender liner. It does little but give you a handy mount for your seat belts and might meet the rules for what ever group you are running with as long as they do not notice. Also To be effective it needs to be as tall as possible so you might fabricated some raised mounts which also have a larger footprint to spread the loads beyond that hatch.
And they are pretty heavy.

Sab

that does not sound too comforting...
As for I am trying to add safety to the car. Bolting it to a plastic plate glued into the floor board doesn't seem to make much sense. What does everyone else do? How would I raise it? Add a 2" solid spacer?
Can some of the racers chime in please? I toght a lof of people run the bolt in roll bar to start out...

Speedtoys

You need to consult with someone that builds race-spec cages..


A bad install, cheap cage, cutting corners, is more likely to kill you than the actual incident would if you had no cage at all.

When the materials and geometry isnt right..they fail INTO the passenger space, not AROUND it.


Yours needs to install to a pad, on a strong part of the car, and there's still a dozen or so other serious issues that need to happen with the install as well. A simple pad on thin metal will just punch the pad out from under the car in the rollover. Not pretty.

Placement, seat design spec, harness bar location height (conforming to seat position/etc) and seat back-brace if recommended by the maufacturer..and of course seat mounting materials as well..all add up to how the cage is designed around you. Not the cage to the car as a generic kit. Hence the 2" of room above this cage, that the car will collapse into, before the cage does anything for you at all.

Simply put..dont hope to get past a safety inspection at an event, plan to AWE the inspector with the awsomeness of the finished product.

It's your life, and you don't get to pick the nature of the incident you will need the cage for.

I dont know anybody that uses bolt-in cages anymore...most of us (Im a race director) have seen far too many GOOD SOLID custom cages fail (properly) in an incident, and we wonder why people would do any less than that.

Budget $3500-4000 on a good high quality cage confirming to the letter & full intent of SCCA/NASA or FIA rules..depending on who you plan to run with.


PS: It costs much more to fix a bad cage, than start scratch...so dont consider a 'starter' and go fix it later..doesnt work that way.


THIS..is the incident you should have in your head while planning this:

The cage..had minor deformation in the drivers footwell bracing where the LF suspension tried to enter the car, and the car was given a new front clip, and the cabin & cage were just fine.

Plan for the worst..cages are not nickle & dime items.

genikz

Is that an Autopower unit?

Sab

yes it's an autopower roll bar.

and Jeff, thanks I understand it would be best to get a $4000 custom cage. But this is still a DE car and I will slowly get it to full race setup. But for now all I have is the Autopower roll bar and it would be really great if anyone that has already done this or has some experience could give me some advise as to how I can best implement it to get the most safety out of it.

Speedtoys

Sab:

You'll spend the money twice, to start with a crappy AP bar, to get to a full race setup and have it "right".

Im someone with experience, sorry you didn't like the answer.

Slowly over the last 5yrs, the standards at which various clubs accept cage/safety work, has been rising.

The right answer, is going to take someone local that KNOWS what they're doing, and plan out if the AP bar can work unmodified at all in the car WRT the seat design/position. That's the keystone of the cage. The seat.

That determines where the harness bar -must- go, because of shoulder to harness angle (must be 90d). The rest of the cage organically works from that position. Also, the drivers head must not be within 2" of any cage member in a normal seated position after you have installed the high density padding.

The pads where the cage connects to the chassis, are the other zero-deviation points of engineering.

The cage goes in between those critical points..with your $ being spent on things like quality of design issues like clearance to chassis, with less being better. An interference fit in a few places is preferable so as the chassis shifts, the cage stops it...but dont weld the hoop TO it. Most all class racing series' wont let you do that, short of unlimited classes. How close it fits to chassis is also how much room you have in the car to get in/out as well.

I dont know how you're going to get a strictly safe install, out of an AP cage anymore. The days of crap pads on sheet metal being allowed due to event insurance costs, are almost over.


Im a cage safety nut. Ive had to manage through two deaths at events as an RD, and countless air transports.

Sab

Thanks and it's not that I don't like the answer, but I don't have enough info to move forward yet.
Situation is as follows...:
I am at the very beginning of my racing days and this is the car I have. It runs great to get seat time and learn, but my harness goes down about 40d to the shock mounts and I am very concerned about it whenever I run on the track. I don't want to hit anything and have my belts shorten my spine by a few inches...
So I picked up a very cheap Autopower roll bar for $299 and want to make it work as good as I can and then put a full cage in it later. First I thought I will be able to use this roll bar and add on, but I think it is the wrong tubing.

So from what I gathered, I should move it back as far as it goes and it will sit on top of the plastic pop out hatch.
I guess I will weld a large base plate to cover the pop out plate and make a counter plate the same size to go outside.
I guess I could raise it with an aluminum spacer bar to get it just barely touching the roof and then bolt it all up.
When I am ready to get the cage done, I am sure I will find another novice to be happy to get a roll bar for $200...
Am I on the right track or throw out the roll bar and wait?
thanks, cheers...

IcemanG17

Sab
928's are very easy to put cages in.....both cages I had custom made were WELL under $4k....the Widow's cage was much more extensive and was about $2k.....the Estates cage has less bars (only 1 cross bar in back, but 928's don't need any), but it still has double nascar bars in both doors plus ankle protection for the driver (watch Jeff's video...mine is only 1 bar, but still better than nothing)...it was about $1600.....

Since you ARE building a race 928...you need a cage that will pass tech with SCCA & NASA...since they are the biggies locally for racing......I would consult a local SCCA-NASA race official to find a list of approved fabricators.....my advice..ONLY use 1.75x.120 DOM....sure its a bit heavier, but guaranteed to pass anyones specs....well worth the maybe 40 lbs different than 1.75 x.095....

If you happen down to Sacramento anytime soon....my race shop www.evilgeniusracing.com can build you a very nice cage for $2k.... EGR is a certified tech inspector for NASA so he can issue you a log book... (hint Speedtoys is a race director for NASA)

I'd say make the drive down here....then we can arrange a track day at Thunderhill on your way back home....

IcemanG17

Sab
I thought you were in Washington.....sorry didn't realize you were in FLORIDA.....my bad

SteveG

Going OT here, I suppose that video in #4 serves a purpose, but certainly we want to know more about the incident. As it is it looks like a bonehead move trying to pass, but he then mentions the car w/o brakes; I'd sure like to know speeds and distances and he thinks he was airborne for some distance,and how appreciative he is for the cage. So the message is don't scrimp on safety. You said that. It's kind of disappointing as it is.

Speedtoys

Front right brake line came out of it's crimp.

Good ol DOT brake lines.

That's what happened.

I watched the incident from about 150yds to the right of the impact...middle of the T7 bypass on the safety crew.

Car was ..and I swear, about 50' in the air.

Speedtoys

Some of the aftermath:

http://www.speedtoys.com/~gemohler/t14crash-after.pdf

mark kibort

your lucky you are in a 928. its really only to help in a really bad wreck. that A and B pillar in the 928 is not going to budge. roll over isnt going to crush the 928. its just too strong. a roll bar bolted in , will give some chassis stiffness, and will be find bolted to the floor, even as thin as it is. staay away from the cut out holes that have been patched with sheet steel and glue.
the rear of the autopower bolts to the shock towers, and is strong.

Speedtoys

Mark:

What are you willing to back up statements like "not going to" and "never" with...or "will be fine bolted to the floor, as thin as it is".

That's insanely irresponsible. I like you..but I really wish you wouldnt put emotion over logic in this situation.

I dont care what the fracking car is made of, a good cage needs to be installed _properly_ and the AP cage will require as much modification to be proper and not lower the value of the car (A future owner would see negative value in a hacked together cage design -vs- a custom dimensionally specific one).

Is an AP cage at the minimum, just barely above the rules, NASA/SCCA legal...yes, but you'll get a talking to about a lot of work you'll need to do to make it proper if the scrutineer is up to his job.

A bunch of slow cars on track..is a different incident value than a faster heavier cars on track.

You make it sound like you dont need ANY cage at all, and even a badly installed and fitting one, is still "good" for the occupant.



Ever wonder why the fabricators are busy for 20 straight hours leading up to a Lemons race? AP roll cages.

Not...kidding.