Captain_Slow

I've searched all the power steering + leak + hose + pump + noise + groaning threads... Mine seems to behaving and slightly leaking like others with leaks in the low pressure regions of the system.

Recently found a small to medium size damp puddle/spot of red fluid beneath the alternator, after sitting for about 5 days of cold weather. The cooling air hose for the alternator was saturated and a red drop clinging to the bottom of the bottom of the alternator.

I made more of a mess starting the car and turning it lock to lock, thinking I was working some air out of the system. Lots of loud groaning. Thought I was successful when it stopped making the noise, but this appears to be a false correlation. Then noticed a bit more fluid underneath and in the area of the original fluid reservoir, hoses, cam gear cover and distributor, etc. More dripping off the alternator and cooling hose. All the same kinds of things I read about in the archives.

But I've noticed something interesting. If I let the car warm up completely I get zero symptoms. Pump makes minimal noise at or near locks, and no leaks.

My hypothesis is this: The supply line has one of the common leak points described by others. When cold the hose shrinks, opening up the leak gap, and it sucks air straight to the pump, causing the groaning if I'm turning the wheel. By not turning the wheel there is no demand on the system draw fluid, and thus air, into the circuit. I'm also guessing this has something to do with no leaking during this warm up time. After everything is toasty under the hood, the hoses have expanded, closing the leak gaps enough that the system functions relatively normal. Perhaps lower viscosity of the fluid is helping as well, as I'm seeing seeing the dampness around the reservoir cap, indicating the filter is dirty.

Fluid level has dropped surprisingly little. In fact, the fluid level has never dropped below the cold line on the dip stick.

Finally getting to the title question. If the pump doesn't make much or any noise when the leaking stops after the fluid is warm, is the pump likely ok, just complaining those times it had air in it?

I've got a rebuilt pump, new supply line (the one with all the bends in it), and a new reservoir. Given what I've been reading about rapidly failing rebuilt pumps (I don't know the source of this rebuilt pump) I'd prefer the easier job of replacing thing reservoir and low pressure hoses, per Dwayne's tutorial.

So, based on collective experience, should I just do the hoses and see if all is quiet and dry afterward, or will I be going back in again to replace the pump very soon?

Thanks
Jon

yardpro

the other thing that could be happening is that when the pump is cold, the viscosity of the fluid is greater.. thus straining the pump. worn bearings in the impeller of the pump can cause the vanes to contact the housing, making the groaning sound..
the thicker fluid could cause the pump to cavitate....

as the fluid thins it is easier to pump, the vanes are not moved as much, and there is less or no cavitation... these, however are merely guesses, as i have absolutely no clue what i am talking about....l

Mrmerlin

first fix the leaks,
inspect the rack boots for fluid ,
if they have fluid in them then a new rebuilt rack may be in your future.

Usually replacement of the reservoir and the factory curved hose and the short feed line will fix the leak.
drop the alternator to get access to the rear of the pump,
tighten the hose fittings on the pump as they may be loose,
make sure the belt is tight

Next drain the rack remove the banjos and turn the wheels back and forth the old oil will come out refit using 4 new sealing washers .
Refill with new Dextron 4 ATF turn the wheel back and forth a few time dont hold it against the lock as it can cause the rack end seals to leak

Captain_Slow

Thank you MrMerlin. Just what I needed.
Jon

jcorenman

+1, what Mrmerlin said-- fix the leaks first, before worrying about the pump. Also replace the reservoir & filter while you are in there.

Leaks work both ways, fluid out and air in. A tiny leak on the suction side won't let much fluid out, there is no pressure. But it can let a lot of air in, especially when the suction is high-- which happens with cold, thick fluid and a nasty, clogged filter in the reservoir. And when air gets into the fluid it makes a very expensive-sounding groaning noise in the pump.

PorKen

My black car has all these symptoms, too.

Please post if you fix your PS probs.

heinrich

As long as it doesn't start barking. A growl here and there can be OK, but once it starts to bark, you should consider a muzzle.

Maleficio

My Volvo's pump was groaning loudly, discovered I had a leak, fixed the leak ($1 clamp), refilled the reservoir, no more groaning. I got lucky, though.

jpitman2

These pumps get very unhappy (read noisy) if they are starved of input fluid - just try clamping the input line flat and see. I have heard of internal delamination of the hoses can cause blockages.
jp 83 Euro S AT 54k

Captain_Slow

Update: I replaced the reservoir and the curvy input hose. I read Dwayne's nice tutorial and was able to do the job without ever looking at it again. This job is a pain, but not hard to do. Hardest part is getting the holes for the long bolt to line up so the bolt will pass through. Working around the radiator hose is a pain, but it does move out of the way enough to get the bolt out and installed.

The puzzle came when I had removed the reservoir and alternator and really didn't see any leaks from either end of the curvy input hose - not at the reservoir or at the back pump where the hose is clamped to the banjo fitting. There was no sign of leaking around the banjos either.

I decided to replace the hose anyway since I already had the alternator out. This is when things got interesting. I pulled the hose from the bottom with my left hand and pushed the upper end toward the rear to help it thread over the top and come out the bottom. But there was a springy resistance. It was hanging on something...then it let loose and came out. Thats when I saw the deep indentation and puncture hole as if a nail had been pressing on it for years. I reached up and felt the thick wire "hose clip hanger thingy". It's hard to describe but I'm sure many of you know what I'm talking about. There is a formed wire hose support that's attached to the body or the engine as an anchor point and then it loops up, down, back up, forming a cradle where the hose should snap into. Well the free end of this wire cradle is sharp...like a nail. The hose was not in the cradle...it was resting on this pointy thick wire end. This was the source of air intake and some fluid leaking until things warmed up and hose expansion sealed it up somewhat.

I also checked the steering rack....pulling the boots way back...bone dry (some good news).

But unfortunately my noisy pump problem still persists, only when cold, when turning the wheel left or right without moving or at slow speeds. As the system warms up the noise decreases so that at any speed the noise is gone, but still remains when not moving while turning the steering wheel. Finally, when very warmed up, the noise is gone whether turning the wheel while moving or not moving. After reading the threads on noisy pumps I have narrowed it down to the following, in the order of preference!!

1. There is just some residual air in the lines and after driving it a few more times their air will make it's way back to the reservoir and all will be fine.

2. The belt needs to be tightened (will check this tomorrow)

3. The pump is going bad (though it is not leaking).

I have a spare rebuilt pump that came with the car. I hope for #1 and will check #2, but if it is #3 I will wait until spring or summer to replace the pump.

I could have changed the pump out today, but I don't like to change too many independent variables while trying to understand what the problem is. I changed the input hose (punctured) and the reservoir - either of which could have solved the noisy pump problem. Now it's looking like residual air, a belt that's too loose (but I don't think it's slipping), or a dying pump.

Jon

Captain_Slow

Sorry...In the first paragraph I'm referring to the long bolt suspending the alternator.

StratfordShark

Hi Jon,

I've replaced that supply hose too and seem to remember that the curly wire support thing actually attaches to the pump at one of the corner bolts, rather than engine or body.

Now you have replaced supply line clean the whole area thoroughly to see if you accumulate any new PS fluid. If you do then I suspect pinhole in the high pressure line, and that this allows air in too.

WallyP

May not be needed in this case, but an old mechanic's trick for locating a leak might come in handy.

It can be difficult to see where oil or fluid is leaking. Clean the area, and blow a little corn starch onto the area. This will leave a thin film of white power covering the area. Leaks will be instantly apparent. The powder is totally non-corrosive, and easily removed. Available very cheaply in the grocery section, but your SO may have a box in the cabinet already.

TheClairvoyant

That long bolt was a P.I.T.A.

I did this job two weeks ago. Half the time was spent on that alternator bolt. It left me wondering if it would have been easier to drain the coolant so the lower radiator hose could be completely out of the way.

That metal hose holder that caused your leak also caused some confusion for me. I didn't know the hose was held in place by anything and I couldn't figure out why I couldn't pull the hose free at first.

It all worked out though. No more PS leaks.

StratfordShark

I usually drain the rad when I have to drop alternator and it's still a pain lining up that long bolt! I cheat and enlist help from SO who is ready with the bolt as I hold alternator in place. I can see it would be an even longer and more frustrating task working alone.