IcemanG17

After reading a brief HP-torque battle on Carls Bonneville thread.....with Kibort on the "HP" side (also known as "kiborts") and Carl taking the "torque" side....whom I agree with....I thought I would ask a ??? using this video from my last race day with Rick and his race 928

The stats:
928 Estate (camera car)
2780lbs dry without driver
215whp (12.9lbs per whp)
256 torque (10.9lbs per torque)
automatic

Ricks 928 (yellow)
2570lbs dry without driver
222whp (11.6-1)
233 torque (11.0-1)
5 speed

Rick's car has a clear power-weight edge, but torque to weight is almost identical...both cars were dyno'd the day before on the same dyno...

The Evidence

At :45 you see the start of the drag race......I had to lift briefly at the start, then I moved left to complete the pass...................at 3:55 its the start of race 2....same result

How is this possible??.....can't say driver, since we both are "flat"

I ask professor kibort for an answer??

Tony

HP sells cars....TQ wins races... : )

Speedtoys

You had MPH on him first start.

You had shift speed on him 2nd start.

hacker-pschorr

Meh......rogerbox versus 5-speed has more to do with the outcome of that video than any other factor.

We have a pair of Corvette's on our team with identical power / weight (per NASA rules) but one has 100+more lb-ft of torque across the board (stock LS3 versus 6+ liter de-tuned for hp/weight rules).
Same tires (new A6's each day), same brakes etc.....

The cars are neck and neck at every track, every race with the LS3 car in the lead for overall wins.

If torque was the dominating factor you guys claim it to be, the LS3 car would be lapped. Especially at larger tracks like Road America.

Those of us who have driven both cars can say the higher torque car is definitely easier to drive, but dollars to donuts it's not actually faster. At least not in the dominating factor the torque junkies would like it to be.

If torque was the most important factor in road racing, it wouldn't have taken a rules change to make the diesels competitive in endurance racing.

The NASA scenario is the best proof behind this argument. Every car in each class is within the same HP / Weight rules yet the torque figures are all over the map. From low torque, high reving small engines to the 6+ liter in one of our cars. Yet lap times among equal drivers are within a small margin.

Someone go wake the Kibort........

Speedtoys

To that point...it depends on the track.

The torque car will win an autox type course, where you dont need the HP end of the stick to go FASTER, you just need to get to point A to B quicker, before you fall out of the torque curve.

The HP car will win on long tracks, where SPEED makes up for coming out of a corner a little less lively...ya..dudes is 2 cars ahead of you leaving a corner, but you have 15mph on him halfway down the straight.

Charley B

Ricks clutch is imperceptably slipping.

anonymousagain

forget the tq, two clear factors are gear-to-gear shift delay during the drag race (if heard correctly) and likely he never caught you during the race because you are smoother transitioned around the entire track with the auto.

curious, were the hp curves identical from the dyno pulls. simple comparo with shift points identified would let you calculate usable hp in the rpm/gear range...aren't these "kiborts"?

Bill Ball

TQ and HP are usually only talked about in term of peak numbers. So, you can have 2 cars with identical numbers, but the shapes of the curves can be vastly different, and one may have much higher over all average numbers also described as area under the curve. Frankly, I think the whole HP vs. TQ controversy is kinda dumb as both number are directly related to each other. One is calculated from the other. If one car has higher TQ in one part of the RPM range, its HP numbers have to be higher there too.

hacker-pschorr

I was at a race a few weeks ago where torque won every race. Each competing vehicle had a huge trailer attached to the back with some guy in a little cab riding along

dprantl

The less gears you have, the fatter you want your torque curve to be because when you shift even at redline, the RPMs will drop a lot more. If a car had only one gear, the car's acceleration would exactly follow the engine's torque curve (assuming the tires stayed hooked up all the time).

Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft

Charley B

These discussions always degenerate into silly arguements of variables and semantics. And yet, like a good car wreck, I just can't turn away and avoid enjoying the misery.

hacker-pschorr

I will be happily participating and contribution to such silly arguments, semantics and dumping fuel on the burning train.

Charley B

So far Bill B is leading the "most sense" catagory and you're leading the "most entertaining" catagory.

hacker-pschorr

Trying to score some points before Kibort gets here and slam dunks my ***.

Charley B

"Most Verbose" trophy already has his name on it, just awaiting his nap time to end.