Is the factory alarm doing this?
10-11-2011, 02:31 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Is the factory alarm doing this?
On my '89, I am having a recurring problem that is probably of my own making, but I just can't consciously recreate it.
The scenario: The car starts and drives great. The battery is fully charged. AFAIK, I park the car, get out, lock the door at the driver side and everything is good. It seems though, if the car is parked for a day or more, I can unlock the driver door, insert the key, and the starter will not turn over the engine. The lights are on and the battery is still fully charged, but I don't even get a blip from the starter.
SIDE NOTE: I did replace the starter relay with a known good relay.
I feel that the culprit is something to do with the factory alarm system.
The part that I cannot figure out: I have CRS and can't remember if I am doing something that is setting the alarm besides using the long key in the driver door. I have gone around and around the car locking and unlocking, but it makes no difference.
If I disconnect the negative battery cable at the rear hatch and immediately (or within 10 minutes) replace it, the car still acts as if the starter is not there.
If I leave the battery disconnected for a day, then reconnect it, the car starts and acts just fine.
Anybody have experience with this ?
The scenario: The car starts and drives great. The battery is fully charged. AFAIK, I park the car, get out, lock the door at the driver side and everything is good. It seems though, if the car is parked for a day or more, I can unlock the driver door, insert the key, and the starter will not turn over the engine. The lights are on and the battery is still fully charged, but I don't even get a blip from the starter.
SIDE NOTE: I did replace the starter relay with a known good relay.
I feel that the culprit is something to do with the factory alarm system.
The part that I cannot figure out: I have CRS and can't remember if I am doing something that is setting the alarm besides using the long key in the driver door. I have gone around and around the car locking and unlocking, but it makes no difference.
If I disconnect the negative battery cable at the rear hatch and immediately (or within 10 minutes) replace it, the car still acts as if the starter is not there.
If I leave the battery disconnected for a day, then reconnect it, the car starts and acts just fine.
Anybody have experience with this ?
10-11-2011, 04:07 PM
#2
Under the Lift
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
I don't believe the factory alarm disables the starter, but I'm not 100% sure of that.
Do you hear the starter relay click when you you try to start the car? What about the starter solenoid (mounted on the starter)? If you hear the starter relay but not the starter solenoid, it's the starter or wiring to/at the starter. I encoutered one starter with a loose ground wire that did this.
You could try briefly bypassing the starter relay (pin 30 to 87) - the starter should turn. If not, then check the 14-pin connector (at the jump post), pin 14 (yellow wire going from relay to starter solenoid). Check the yellow wire at the starter. If 12V all along this path, then the starter solenoid is failing.
I suppose it could be the transmission lockout switch. Not sure how to examine that. I know it's a simple ground switch mounted on the tranny that is wired to pin 85 on the starter relay.
If you don't hear that starter relay or the solenoid click, then I would be suspicious of the ignition switch or the tranny lockout switch.
Do you hear the starter relay click when you you try to start the car? What about the starter solenoid (mounted on the starter)? If you hear the starter relay but not the starter solenoid, it's the starter or wiring to/at the starter. I encoutered one starter with a loose ground wire that did this.
You could try briefly bypassing the starter relay (pin 30 to 87) - the starter should turn. If not, then check the 14-pin connector (at the jump post), pin 14 (yellow wire going from relay to starter solenoid). Check the yellow wire at the starter. If 12V all along this path, then the starter solenoid is failing.
I suppose it could be the transmission lockout switch. Not sure how to examine that. I know it's a simple ground switch mounted on the tranny that is wired to pin 85 on the starter relay.
If you don't hear that starter relay or the solenoid click, then I would be suspicious of the ignition switch or the tranny lockout switch.
10-11-2011, 04:28 PM
#3
It sounds more like an ignition switch or starter issue. The alarm won't keep it from cranking.
10-11-2011, 06:22 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I don't believe the factory alarm disables the starter, but I'm not 100% sure of that.
Do you hear the starter relay click when you you try to start the car? What about the starter solenoid (mounted on the starter)? If you hear the starter relay but not the starter solenoid, it's the starter or wiring to/at the starter. I encoutered one starter with a loose ground wire that did this.
You could try briefly bypassing the starter relay (pin 30 to 87) - the starter should turn. If not, then check the 14-pin connector (at the jump post), pin 14 (yellow wire going from relay to starter solenoid). Check the yellow wire at the starter. If 12V all along this path, then the starter solenoid is failing.
If you don't hear that starter relay or the solenoid click, then I would be suspicious of the ignition switch or the tranny lockout switch.
Do you hear the starter relay click when you you try to start the car? What about the starter solenoid (mounted on the starter)? If you hear the starter relay but not the starter solenoid, it's the starter or wiring to/at the starter. I encoutered one starter with a loose ground wire that did this.
You could try briefly bypassing the starter relay (pin 30 to 87) - the starter should turn. If not, then check the 14-pin connector (at the jump post), pin 14 (yellow wire going from relay to starter solenoid). Check the yellow wire at the starter. If 12V all along this path, then the starter solenoid is failing.
If you don't hear that starter relay or the solenoid click, then I would be suspicious of the ignition switch or the tranny lockout switch.
Neither the starter nor starter relay make a sound when I turn the key initially. I'll check for 12V at the jump post when it does this again. (I'vs been driving it all this afternoon
)From there, I'll check the ignition switch? Strange symptoms, methinks, for an ignition switch.
Last edited by soontobered84; 10-11-2011 at 06:23 PM. Reason: sp
10-11-2011, 07:22 PM
#5
Under the Lift
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Well, if neither the relay and solenoid do anything, the problem is upstream from the relay, and that would be the tranny lockout on the side of the tranny or the ignition switch. Of course, it could be somewhere in the harness for these parts. The lockout switch goes through pins 3 and 4 on a connector in the spare tire well. The wires are violet and violet/white mating to brown and brown/yellow. In park or neutral I think there should be continuity across the violet and violet/white wires.
10-11-2011, 07:37 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks Bill,
By saying the lockout, you mean the neutral safety switch on the side of the transmission? Just making sure I am looking at the same thing I did replace that switch about 2 years (?) ago. I probably should check it while everything is working well, and then check it again when it fubars.
Like I originally posted, I cannot figure out how to recreat the scenario, but I do know how to make it run afterward.
By saying the lockout, you mean the neutral safety switch on the side of the transmission? Just making sure I am looking at the same thing I did replace that switch about 2 years (?) ago. I probably should check it while everything is working well, and then check it again when it fubars.
Like I originally posted, I cannot figure out how to recreat the scenario, but I do know how to make it run afterward.
10-11-2011, 08:13 PM
#7
Under the Lift
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thanks Bill,
By saying the lockout, you mean the neutral safety switch on the side of the transmission? Just making sure I am looking at the same thing I did replace that switch about 2 years (?) ago. I probably should check it while everything is working well, and then check it again when it fubars.
Like I originally posted, I cannot figure out how to recreat the scenario, but I do know how to make it run afterward.
By saying the lockout, you mean the neutral safety switch on the side of the transmission? Just making sure I am looking at the same thing I did replace that switch about 2 years (?) ago. I probably should check it while everything is working well, and then check it again when it fubars.
Like I originally posted, I cannot figure out how to recreat the scenario, but I do know how to make it run afterward.
The switch in question is part of the gear selector lever assembly on the right side of the tranny and controls the starter lockout and back-up lights. Why did you replace it?
Trending Topics
10-12-2011, 12:41 AM
#9
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I was thinking that I should check it while it is working correctly to establish some kind of baseline for when it is not working correctly. Is that faulty thinking? Car electrics and electronics are not my strong suit to put it nicely.
10-12-2011, 01:12 AM
#11
My factory alarm on my 90 disables the starter, the alarm when off when I parked up once with the keys in the ignition
Once I stepped out of the car the alarm went off and would not crank until I made sure the hatch was shut completely (The hatch had popped open whilst over a speed hump).
Once I stepped out of the car the alarm went off and would not crank until I made sure the hatch was shut completely (The hatch had popped open whilst over a speed hump).
10-12-2011, 01:54 AM
#12
Team Owner
replace the starter relay with another known good relay,
try using the horn relay.
try using the horn relay.
10-12-2011, 06:42 PM
#14
Electron Wrangler
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Alan
04-06-2013, 07:53 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
As a follow-up:
I had the passenger door re-keyed so that it could be unlocked, in the chance that if the alarm was somehow immobilizing the car, I could alleviate the problem of being able to unlock THAT door. After rekeying the door, I had NO more issues with the problem for quite a while.
Then one day, it happened again. I ran around and locked and unlocked the door and then locked and unlocked all the other possibilities. Nothing happened. I unlocked everything and opened and closed all the doors and hatch, and voila, the car started right up.
I thought, "A HA, it must be a door pin assembly or something like that. I can open the doors and hatch and shut them until the right connection is made."
The car went about 2 weeks before immobilizing again. I opened doors and hatch and shut doors and hatch and never could come up with a combination that would start the car. So I'm just sitting in the car doing nothing but jiggling the key in the ignition. I turn the key and it starts right up. I think, "A HA!! It must be the ignition switch. I was gonna pull the instrument pod anyway to replace illumination bulbs with LED, so while I'm there, I replace the ignition switch.
The car went about 2 to 3 weeks before immobilizing again. I had a real quick delivery to a local hospital so I pulled in the driveway and pulled up to the curb in a fire lane and hopped out. I knew that no other doors or hatch had been used. I was inside maybe 2 minutes and when I came out, the car is in the immobilization state. I didn't do anything but sit there pondering all the things I had done previously to the car to get it to this particular juncture. I actually might have opened and closed my door, but was minutes before my pondering. I turned the key and it started right up.
I was close by CJ8 2 928's warehouse and so I dropped in to see him. I knew he has a set of permanent ramps and I drove in and right onto the ramps. I asked if he had any spray brake cleaner and maybe some spray lubricant. He had both. As I turned the key, he sprayed cleaner onto the exposed shaft of the starter. We let that dry, then as I turned the key, he sprayed the lubricant onto the same shaft.
It has been several months and the car has never immobilized itself since that day.
Apparently, the shaft on the starter was somewhat gummy and was slow to retract. Shutting doors and the hatch would cause vibrations that would "help" the shaft retract itself. Another factor was simply time itself: the retracting spring would, over time, continue to place pressure on the shaft to retract until it was retracted. The starter solenoid would not power the starter with the shaft extended even a little bit, so until the shaft retracted fully, the car was " immobilized".
Thanks to everyone for their suggestions, help, and guidance.
I had the passenger door re-keyed so that it could be unlocked, in the chance that if the alarm was somehow immobilizing the car, I could alleviate the problem of being able to unlock THAT door. After rekeying the door, I had NO more issues with the problem for quite a while.
Then one day, it happened again. I ran around and locked and unlocked the door and then locked and unlocked all the other possibilities. Nothing happened. I unlocked everything and opened and closed all the doors and hatch, and voila, the car started right up.
I thought, "A HA, it must be a door pin assembly or something like that. I can open the doors and hatch and shut them until the right connection is made."
The car went about 2 weeks before immobilizing again. I opened doors and hatch and shut doors and hatch and never could come up with a combination that would start the car. So I'm just sitting in the car doing nothing but jiggling the key in the ignition. I turn the key and it starts right up. I think, "A HA!! It must be the ignition switch. I was gonna pull the instrument pod anyway to replace illumination bulbs with LED, so while I'm there, I replace the ignition switch.
The car went about 2 to 3 weeks before immobilizing again. I had a real quick delivery to a local hospital so I pulled in the driveway and pulled up to the curb in a fire lane and hopped out. I knew that no other doors or hatch had been used. I was inside maybe 2 minutes and when I came out, the car is in the immobilization state. I didn't do anything but sit there pondering all the things I had done previously to the car to get it to this particular juncture. I actually might have opened and closed my door, but was minutes before my pondering. I turned the key and it started right up.
I was close by CJ8 2 928's warehouse and so I dropped in to see him. I knew he has a set of permanent ramps and I drove in and right onto the ramps. I asked if he had any spray brake cleaner and maybe some spray lubricant. He had both. As I turned the key, he sprayed cleaner onto the exposed shaft of the starter. We let that dry, then as I turned the key, he sprayed the lubricant onto the same shaft.
It has been several months and the car has never immobilized itself since that day.
Apparently, the shaft on the starter was somewhat gummy and was slow to retract. Shutting doors and the hatch would cause vibrations that would "help" the shaft retract itself. Another factor was simply time itself: the retracting spring would, over time, continue to place pressure on the shaft to retract until it was retracted. The starter solenoid would not power the starter with the shaft extended even a little bit, so until the shaft retracted fully, the car was " immobilized".
Thanks to everyone for their suggestions, help, and guidance.