Advice on potential 1991 S4 purchase
08-02-2011, 11:50 AM
#16
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YMMV.
The OP has two posts. He says he is new to the 928. It sounds like you are at another level. Another set of eyes is always good if the shop knows 928s, it is money well spent. There is another thread in which someone says he has bought several based only on ebay pics and emotion. That is a recipe for disaster.
The OP has two posts. He says he is new to the 928. It sounds like you are at another level. Another set of eyes is always good if the shop knows 928s, it is money well spent. There is another thread in which someone says he has bought several based only on ebay pics and emotion. That is a recipe for disaster.
08-02-2011, 01:50 PM
#17
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I don't think one could find a half way decent 91 S4 for $10k; let alone one that has as much recent work done and seems to be in good condition as the one described here -- unless it has a major mechanical or cosmetic issue.
08-03-2011, 05:01 AM
#18
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Nicole,
I fear to say this due to the reaction it might provoke. What a 928 owner thinks their car is worth and what someone will pay is quite different. Of course if there are problems then it is often to figure the car's value at 25% the value of the part.
I have bought a number of 928s over the years - too many actually - I have always paid too much and the owner has always felt he gave the car away. But when you look at a car that has been for sale for a year or more they tend to be flexible.
If you want to see a dramatic example of this go through eBay auctions. First look at those that did not sell and then go back and look for similar examples that actually sold - not pretend sold and then relisted because of a flaky buyer. The difference is probably greater than almost any other car.
It is not that the 928 is a bad car. It just has a huge repair liability. When I see an original car that has had a lot of work my trouble antenna goes up. While the 928 does require some upkeep, it is also probably the most butchered car I have ever seen. Even some shops that we would think were 928 experts I have seen some very bad work including engine fires caused by bad work - the shops will remain nameless to protect the innocent. The best situation is to find a car that was worked on by a small shop with a single mechanic. As soon as the shop gets big enough to support employees then the 928 becomes the training car.
When the LH has been replaced along with other parts engine and fuel part I immediately suspect incompetence. It is not that the LH does not go out on the S4 cars it is just such a replacement is often a failure of proper diagonsis.
So for a nice S4 a $10K purchase price is reasonable. Duane got his 90 S4 that was fully loaded with options for $12K and that was six years ago. Since the separation between the years has merged. A 928 is no longer valued by year but much more by condition. As we are seeing on Renn List we are now seeing some frame up restorations. This will become the norm as time goes on. When this happens then we will see some firming of prices.
I fear to say this due to the reaction it might provoke. What a 928 owner thinks their car is worth and what someone will pay is quite different. Of course if there are problems then it is often to figure the car's value at 25% the value of the part.
I have bought a number of 928s over the years - too many actually - I have always paid too much and the owner has always felt he gave the car away. But when you look at a car that has been for sale for a year or more they tend to be flexible.
If you want to see a dramatic example of this go through eBay auctions. First look at those that did not sell and then go back and look for similar examples that actually sold - not pretend sold and then relisted because of a flaky buyer. The difference is probably greater than almost any other car.
It is not that the 928 is a bad car. It just has a huge repair liability. When I see an original car that has had a lot of work my trouble antenna goes up. While the 928 does require some upkeep, it is also probably the most butchered car I have ever seen. Even some shops that we would think were 928 experts I have seen some very bad work including engine fires caused by bad work - the shops will remain nameless to protect the innocent. The best situation is to find a car that was worked on by a small shop with a single mechanic. As soon as the shop gets big enough to support employees then the 928 becomes the training car.
When the LH has been replaced along with other parts engine and fuel part I immediately suspect incompetence. It is not that the LH does not go out on the S4 cars it is just such a replacement is often a failure of proper diagonsis.
So for a nice S4 a $10K purchase price is reasonable. Duane got his 90 S4 that was fully loaded with options for $12K and that was six years ago. Since the separation between the years has merged. A 928 is no longer valued by year but much more by condition. As we are seeing on Renn List we are now seeing some frame up restorations. This will become the norm as time goes on. When this happens then we will see some firming of prices.
08-03-2011, 05:15 AM
#19
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While I see your overall point, I can't see how the specific history of the above car could be a red flag for shoddy mechanics work. Nothing there is out of the ordinary for the age and mileage of the car - most are wear items.
Rather the opposite - having new rear wheel liners for I-don't-know-how-many Dollars indicates that someone was not shy spending money on this car and having things rectified when they were less than right.
If the items touched on on the car listed devalue a 928, then my car is worth ZERO, as I have done more than these things to mine. I always maintained and fixed it, with lots of preventive maintenance thrown-in. This ensures that the car will run trouble free for a long time.
Personally, if I had to buy another one, I would specifically look for a 91 again. Many reasons for that, that are worth a premium to me.
No, you could not buy mine for $15k.
Rather the opposite - having new rear wheel liners for I-don't-know-how-many Dollars indicates that someone was not shy spending money on this car and having things rectified when they were less than right.
If the items touched on on the car listed devalue a 928, then my car is worth ZERO, as I have done more than these things to mine. I always maintained and fixed it, with lots of preventive maintenance thrown-in. This ensures that the car will run trouble free for a long time.
Personally, if I had to buy another one, I would specifically look for a 91 again. Many reasons for that, that are worth a premium to me.
No, you could not buy mine for $15k.
08-03-2011, 10:30 AM
#20
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Or it is a distress sale by one of the members here.
08-03-2011, 06:36 PM
#21
I have a very nice 91s4 for sale and it is in extremely nice condition. It's on craigslist for 8500.
High mileage brings the price down, but the amount of work recently done holds it around there. New interior, new paint, newly done top end, etc.
Plenty of interest outside of rennlist. It will sell for around that price.
High mileage brings the price down, but the amount of work recently done holds it around there. New interior, new paint, newly done top end, etc.
Plenty of interest outside of rennlist. It will sell for around that price.
08-03-2011, 07:35 PM
#22
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Not sure why it is being picked apart... 20 years old and just under 100k miles -those are logical repairs/replacements. The LH is a question mark -but may have had issues, as electronics can and do have. I think a negotiating point would be the cost to repair the clear coat and driver's seat... might start the pricing at $10k and end up somewhere in the $12-13k range.
Even a car with half the mileage would have many of those items replaced just due to age... I wouldn't dwell on it.
It sounds like an enjoyed, driven, taken care of 928 -rather than an abused one.
Even a car with half the mileage would have many of those items replaced just due to age... I wouldn't dwell on it.
It sounds like an enjoyed, driven, taken care of 928 -rather than an abused one.
08-03-2011, 07:44 PM
#23
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If you do much shopping for used items, following craigslist, ebay, you might notice that some people are having serious economic troubles, and with an item like a 928 a forced fast sale is going to be brutal on price. Very often we don't see that price because its a flipper that makes the low ball, but cash offer finally accepted.
08-04-2011, 08:28 AM
#24
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Tell me what has been replaced on a 928 and I will tell you if the mechanic knew anything about the car. For instance if a belt is done and the plastic bushing in the tension arm are not replaced them the mechanic is not good with 928s. Or during a TB job the front seal is not replaced. Tell me the air conditioning has been converted to R134 and it is clear the A/C guy knew nothing about the cars system. Tell me it has to be charged once a year and again there are problems left to the next guy.
If you see a series of repairs like fuel pump, pressure regulators, injectors and the LH and it is clear the problem with the car still exists and has been masked while the owner attempts to sell the car to get out from under potential labor bills as the search for the real problem goes on.
Also in some ways a newer low mileage car is a bigger liability than an older 928. S4s are famous for blowing LH computers. The 85-86 and older cars are much more reliable. Then there is the issue of the RDK, and PSD. These are nice features that cost a lot to when they fail.
Most owners will have to spend at least what they paid for the car in the first year in repairs and upgrades. Some don't do this and just keep driving until the car goes no more. By that time there are very few good parts left on the car.
If you see a series of repairs like fuel pump, pressure regulators, injectors and the LH and it is clear the problem with the car still exists and has been masked while the owner attempts to sell the car to get out from under potential labor bills as the search for the real problem goes on.
Also in some ways a newer low mileage car is a bigger liability than an older 928. S4s are famous for blowing LH computers. The 85-86 and older cars are much more reliable. Then there is the issue of the RDK, and PSD. These are nice features that cost a lot to when they fail.
Most owners will have to spend at least what they paid for the car in the first year in repairs and upgrades. Some don't do this and just keep driving until the car goes no more. By that time there are very few good parts left on the car.
08-04-2011, 11:13 AM
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08-05-2011, 05:59 AM
#26
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Bill,
My point is the quality of the work on the 928 can be determined by what was done to the car. For example, if there is a long list of expensive repairs I immediately think sucker. Some shop or even the agency has been robbing the owner. Yes these are high maintance cars but the items replaced and how they fail is as important to watch as the actual repairs.
As far as R134 the system is not designed for it. R134a has a higher boil off point. R12 is readily available and is the right coolant for the car. Converting the car to R134 is more expensive in the end - ie makes work for the mechanic - and has no advantage I can think of. One could argue that it is cheaper to top off with R134 when a system has a slow leak - but putting freon in a leaking system is an excuse and illegal. My 78 still has the original factory charge. It is possible and the right thing to do to get the system sealed correctly.
I looked at a nice GTS a while back with fairly low miles - I think about 80K. already it had a new head when the belt broke. Why did the belt break - bad service - simple as that. I guess a water pump could granade but there was a long list of other very expensive repairs. Now the GTS is supposed to have most of the bugs worked out. I think the GTS had the LH repalced as well - easy service - ten minutes bill an hour plus parts profits. Sure they fail but I suspect it is an over used fix. Maybe ask Paul about his GTS and the run around from a former top 928 shop.
I am not trying to hold myself out as god or perfect. In fact, given your experience I would defer to you on most things. But you are unusual - most shops are in my experience from northern Cal are corrupt. I say this from experience. I also think unless someone has a good friend like you as a resource or are mechanically inclined owning a 928 is a fools errand. There are very few who take the time as professionals to understand the car. The list of bogus repairs and excuses from mechanics would fill a list too big to consider.
All these things impact the selling price - even with a very nice car. It is too easy for minor things to cascade to serious and costly repairs.
My point is the quality of the work on the 928 can be determined by what was done to the car. For example, if there is a long list of expensive repairs I immediately think sucker. Some shop or even the agency has been robbing the owner. Yes these are high maintance cars but the items replaced and how they fail is as important to watch as the actual repairs.
As far as R134 the system is not designed for it. R134a has a higher boil off point. R12 is readily available and is the right coolant for the car. Converting the car to R134 is more expensive in the end - ie makes work for the mechanic - and has no advantage I can think of. One could argue that it is cheaper to top off with R134 when a system has a slow leak - but putting freon in a leaking system is an excuse and illegal. My 78 still has the original factory charge. It is possible and the right thing to do to get the system sealed correctly.
I looked at a nice GTS a while back with fairly low miles - I think about 80K. already it had a new head when the belt broke. Why did the belt break - bad service - simple as that. I guess a water pump could granade but there was a long list of other very expensive repairs. Now the GTS is supposed to have most of the bugs worked out. I think the GTS had the LH repalced as well - easy service - ten minutes bill an hour plus parts profits. Sure they fail but I suspect it is an over used fix. Maybe ask Paul about his GTS and the run around from a former top 928 shop.
I am not trying to hold myself out as god or perfect. In fact, given your experience I would defer to you on most things. But you are unusual - most shops are in my experience from northern Cal are corrupt. I say this from experience. I also think unless someone has a good friend like you as a resource or are mechanically inclined owning a 928 is a fools errand. There are very few who take the time as professionals to understand the car. The list of bogus repairs and excuses from mechanics would fill a list too big to consider.
All these things impact the selling price - even with a very nice car. It is too easy for minor things to cascade to serious and costly repairs.
